x-no-archive:yes

(Frank Maier) wrote:

(Bob Whitaker) wrote:
...snip...
You mentioned that this thread has spawned a couple if interesting
sub-threads, and I have another sub-thread for you. What do you think
of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? Years ago my Coast Guard Auxiliary
instructor was "big" on ketch (or yawl) rigs due to the smaller sails
and because a reefed sail on the mizzen mast could act as a weather
vane, pointing the bow to the wind and helping prevent the boat from
lying abeam to the waves. Is this one of those tactics you now
consider "passe"?

We're starting to get too many subthreads for me to follow. I gave my
standard diatribe about rigs in response to your response to DSK,
where you ask that as a P.S. So, jump over there for several
paragraphs of my opinions. (Worth every penny you paid for 'em!)

I believe that up through the 60s ~ early 70s, survival methods tended
to favor passive styles, e.g. lying a-hull. My interpretation of what
I've read about tactics since then (including Coles et al.) and my
personal experience favors active methods, e.g running off. But as I
said, everything has worked, and also failed to work, for different
people in different circumstances; so I think you'd be hard pressed to
definitively defend any given style of dealing with bad conditions.
Someone can always point to an exception and say, "But what about ..."
Me, I'd say that any opinion opposite mine is a case of abusus non
tollit usum; but I'll bet that those who oppose my positions would say
that *I'm* arguing abusus...

Does lying ahull (which I would not want to do personally) go in the
same category as heaving to?

To be blunt, my short answer is, "Yes." Even for full keel, heavy
displacement, low aspect ratio, multi-stick etc. boats, my personal
belief is that passive methods are not as good as active methods. In
shorthand, that'd be "lying a-hull is passe." Like all
generalizations, it's too broadly stated; but again, we're not writing
full-length novels to each other here and we hafta use some shortcuts.


I have heard that a fin keel boat can't heave to as well as a full
keel boat. I don not know for sure if this is true, but I've seen a
video tape which purports to show that it is.

grandma Rosalie

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement. Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

The myth of 200 mile days as typical is just a myth.

============================================== =

I have sailed more 200 mile days than I can remember but for the most
part they were on large, well equipped racing boats over 40 feet. All
you need is a day of good reaching conditions where you can average a
bit over 8 knots. Not that difficult on a good boat, you just need
the right conditions.

At the risk of creating consternation, I do not believe that a 200
mile day is a myth, assuming we are talking about a 24 hour day. We
did 168 nm in a day and we were only motor sailing in a slow old
sailboat. If we'd had any appreciable wind and hadn't had to struggle
in the inlet against a lot of current we'd have done it quicker.


grandma Rosalie

"Jeff Morris" wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper towels!

(nothing personal to anyone, I'm thinking of some in the BVI)


my experience in the BVI is that the vast majority of "sailors" motor away with
the charter boat and motor back back with the charter boat, a nice steady 20
knots of winds blowing most of the time.

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement. Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

I'm saying that in any kind of speedy boat that they ARE pretty
average. Yes sometimes you don't have any wind and you won't be able
to do that much. LIke in our case in a non-speedy boat, we did only
about 160 nm but without much if any wind. And sometimes you'll have
a contrary wind and sometimes too much wind.

We did 60 some nm coming up from Marathon Monday in 13 hours coming
against a contrary wind - mostly about 30 degrees from our heading.
This is way more than we usually do because we mostly travel during
daylight hours and not offshore. OTOH we did 92 nm from West End to
Ft. Pierce in about the same length of time.

So for OUR boat, 200 nm days would not be average or typical. But for
most of the boats that you guys are advocating whilst kind of looking
down your noses at how slow our fat old tub is - I think 200 nm is
kind of a nice easy way to calculate your projected trip.


The myth of 200 mile days as typical is just a myth.

============================================= ==

I have sailed more 200 mile days than I can remember but for the most
part they were on large, well equipped racing boats over 40 feet. All
you need is a day of good reaching conditions where you can average a
bit over 8 knots. Not that difficult on a good boat, you just need
the right conditions.

At the risk of creating consternation, I do not believe that a 200
mile day is a myth, assuming we are talking about a 24 hour day. We
did 168 nm in a day and we were only motor sailing in a slow old
sailboat. If we'd had any appreciable wind and hadn't had to struggle
in the inlet against a lot of current we'd have done it quicker.


grandma Rosalie








grandma Rosalie

Viva was a sister magazine to Penthouse. Viva was pitched as "a class act",
where Penthouse was rougher. Viva folded some years back.

wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper
towels!

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:18:48 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement. Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

I'm saying that in any kind of speedy boat that they ARE pretty
average. Yes sometimes you don't have any wind and you won't be able
to do that much. LIke in our case in a non-speedy boat, we did only
about 160 nm but without much if any wind. And sometimes you'll have
a contrary wind and sometimes too much wind.

We did 60 some nm coming up from Marathon Monday in 13 hours coming
against a contrary wind - mostly about 30 degrees from our heading.
This is way more than we usually do because we mostly travel during
daylight hours and not offshore. OTOH we did 92 nm from West End to
Ft. Pierce in about the same length of time.

So for OUR boat, 200 nm days would not be average or typical. But for
most of the boats that you guys are advocating whilst kind of looking
down your noses at how slow our fat old tub is - I think 200 nm is
kind of a nice easy way to calculate your projected trip.

With my boat, which isn't particularly fast, when planning a trip I
usually use a 5 knot speed of advance toward the destination which takes
into account windy days, calm days, good direction and bad. For the
trips I've done, that's worked out to be a very good average estimate.

That's 120nm for a 24 hour day for the math challenged.

Steve4

congrats, steve.

From: (Steven Shelikoff)
Date: 3/25/2004 7:26 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:18:48 GMT, Rosalie B.
wrote:

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

grandma, I thought the context was that 200 miles were typical, average and
could be planned on. sorry that I didn't include that in the statement.
Yes,
high mileage days can be had, but are not typical.

I'm saying that in any kind of speedy boat that they ARE pretty
average. Yes sometimes you don't have any wind and you won't be able
to do that much. LIke in our case in a non-speedy boat, we did only
about 160 nm but without much if any wind. And sometimes you'll have
a contrary wind and sometimes too much wind.

We did 60 some nm coming up from Marathon Monday in 13 hours coming
against a contrary wind - mostly about 30 degrees from our heading.
This is way more than we usually do because we mostly travel during
daylight hours and not offshore. OTOH we did 92 nm from West End to
Ft. Pierce in about the same length of time.

So for OUR boat, 200 nm days would not be average or typical. But for
most of the boats that you guys are advocating whilst kind of looking
down your noses at how slow our fat old tub is - I think 200 nm is
kind of a nice easy way to calculate your projected trip.

With my boat, which isn't particularly fast, when planning a trip I
usually use a 5 knot speed of advance toward the destination which takes
into account windy days, calm days, good direction and bad. For the
trips I've done, that's worked out to be a very good average estimate.

That's 120nm for a 24 hour day for the math challenged.

Steve4

On 25 Mar 2004 10:59:59 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

"Jeff Morris" wrote:
You buy paper towels that have a centerfold?

"JAXAshby" wrote:
...also a centerfold from Viva

Ewwww, gross, Jeff. Now I'll never again be able to buy (or use) Viva paper towels!

I believe Jax finds them more effective than Kleenex when typing
one-handed to boating newsgroups. Perhaps that's because he once faced
a 'mutiny' on the Bounty. G I believe he's considers himself the
"quicker picker upper" in any case

Sorry, I couldn't resist the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to pun on
boats, paper towels, and Jax's epistolatory style. Oh, Jax, I know
you're some sort of Mensan or something, so I'll clarify: that means
"the way you post", and NOT the "way you urinate".

R.

rhys wrote: On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800,
....snip a lotta good discussion...
Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing. Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

See ya,

Frank