Well, then, certain attributes suggest themselves: lines *already* led
back to the cockpit--maybe even a center cockpit, which is arguably
better for women due to the better visibility

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?! bull**** that is.

x-no-archive:yes


(JAXAshby) wrote:

Well, then, certain attributes suggest themselves: lines *already* led
back to the cockpit--maybe even a center cockpit, which is arguably
better for women due to the better visibility

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?! bull**** that is.

What is wrong with better visibilty?

I prefer a center cockpit because of

a) better visibility forward (not aft because we have so much stuff on
the aft deck that we can't see aft very well but YMWV on that). We
still have a blind spot under the bow, but I have much less problem
seeing and the blind spot is less for me in a center cockpit. Except
for entering harbors etc, and even for anchoring I prefer to sit and
steer. Or rather - for most of the time I prefer to sit and let the
autopilot steer.

b) Less motion in the cockpit because it's closer to the center of the
boat.

I see nothing wrong with all lines led back to the cockpit - seems
sensible to me. If you are single handing you don't want to be having
to go up on deck to do something to the sails.

I do think someone who is doing a passage needs to have a wind vane
for steering rather than, or in addition to an autopilot. We don't
have one, but we don't do passages so we just use the autopilot. If
you have one, but sure it is big enough to handle the boat.



grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

a.) it was condescending to women,

b.) all lines led aft both dramaticly increases friction and the chance of
failure in high wind conditions, it also makes one psychologically unable to go
forward under conditions when one HAS to go forward, and

c.) the center cockpit vs aft cockpit is a far more serious discussion that to
say it is better for the "little lady to see over".


The reason people like cc boats is that they get a full width aft stateroom.
To get that aft stateroom they get a lower performing boat, and a boat that
usually can not have an effective windwave set up. Wendy has stated she wants
an ocean going boat to go ocean going (trying to cross serious bluewater
without a windvane is kinda dumb, unless one is motoring the entire way. Also,
electric auto pilots have serious reliability issues, burn LOTS of hard to
replace amps, and don't steer well as the winds pick up, just the area where
wind vanes come into their own). She also wants something under 40 feet (ALL
cc boats under 40 ar Ugh Lee, and really poor performers to boot), and perhaps
as small as 30 feet (only really weird duck boats have cc's under 35 feet).

(JAXAshby) wrote:

Well, then, certain attributes suggest themselves: lines *already* led
back to the cockpit--maybe even a center cockpit, which is arguably
better for women due to the better visibility

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?! bull**** that is.

What is wrong with better visibilty?

I prefer a center cockpit because of

a) better visibility forward (not aft because we have so much stuff on
the aft deck that we can't see aft very well but YMWV on that). We
still have a blind spot under the bow, but I have much less problem
seeing and the blind spot is less for me in a center cockpit. Except
for entering harbors etc, and even for anchoring I prefer to sit and
steer. Or rather - for most of the time I prefer to sit and let the
autopilot steer.

b) Less motion in the cockpit because it's closer to the center of the
boat.

I see nothing wrong with all lines led back to the cockpit - seems
sensible to me. If you are single handing you don't want to be having
to go up on deck to do something to the sails.

I do think someone who is doing a passage needs to have a wind vane
for steering rather than, or in addition to an autopilot. We don't
have one, but we don't do passages so we just use the autopilot. If
you have one, but sure it is big enough to handle the boat.



grandma Rosalie

S/V RosalieAnn, Leonardtown, MD
CSY 44 WO #156
http://home.mindspring.com/~gmbeasley/id2.html

On 30 Jan 2004 16:30:40 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

a.) it was condescending to women,

Only in your fevered mind, apparently.

b.) all lines led aft both dramaticly increases friction and the chance of
failure in high wind conditions, it also makes one psychologically unable to go
forward under conditions when one HAS to go forward, and

It can, but usually doesn't unless there are a number of unnecessary
turns. Internal halyards aren't usually carried away by the wind, and
if it's that high, tearing out your Spinlock is the least of your
worries.

If what you were saying had much validity, we wouldn't have roller
furling. Almost all cruisers do. I don't, and thus have that "real
world" experience you so rarely believe others except yourself to
possess.

c.) the center cockpit vs aft cockpit is a far more serious discussion that to
say it is better for the "little lady to see over".

Well, it's also better for the little man, I suppose, but my five foot
tall wife is quite happy on the tiller of my 34' C&C design in 35
knots. Other stronger, taller women and any number of men wouldn't be.
The preference is as much personal as practical. These days, Mini Me
can drive a Volvo 60 with the right equipment...so physicality is no
obstacle. Attitude and comfort levels are. Ellen MacArthur is five
two, after all, and she's probably in the top five ocean racer list.


The reason people like cc boats is that they get a full width aft stateroom.

That's *one* reason.

To get that aft stateroom they get a lower performing boat, and a boat that
usually can not have an effective windwave set up.

I'll have to tell my center-cockpit ketch owning buddy to return that
Voyager windvane, then. He obviously doesn't know when he's being
steered effectively.

Wendy has stated she wants
an ocean going boat to go ocean going (trying to cross serious bluewater
without a windvane is kinda dumb, unless one is motoring the entire way. Also,
electric auto pilots have serious reliability issues, burn LOTS of hard to
replace amps, and don't steer well as the winds pick up, just the area where
wind vanes come into their own).

I actually agree with you, JAX. Windvane and autopilot fill each
others' gaps, as last month's Cruising World article putting the two
devices head-to-head in ocean conditions demonstrated. Where I differ
is in positing that self-steering and a center-cockpit boat are
necessarily opposed. They aren't.

She also wants something under 40 feet (ALL
cc boats under 40 ar Ugh Lee, and really poor performers to boot), and perhaps
as small as 30 feet (only really weird duck boats have cc's under 35 feet).

ALL of them, eh? That sailing simulator you own is some piece of work,
JAX. Anyway, thanks for being the gallant arbiter of insult to females
everywhere. I'm sure you are in many prayers tonight.

hey, rhys, NO one suggested you were forced to buy the "Japanese Standard" in
condoms. You wanted a center cockpit boat, you got one. Live with it. Motor
with it. Enjoy the large aft stateroom/small salon. It was your choice.

Wendy, however, was asking about a serious bluewater boat she could singlehand.
Different criteria she has than you had. If she had said she wanted to motor
down/up the ICW twice a year, "sail" over to the Bahamas, tie to a dock for
extended periods of time, drink iced drinks starting at 3 in the afternoon and
running til sundown people would have given her different advise. But Wendy
didn't ask for that type of boat, she asked for a genuine bluewater sailor 30'
40' she could singlehand.

I say, Good for Wendy.

btw, rhys, have *you* ever purposely spun an airplane?(indeed, do you even know
how?) Wendy has, for the fun of it. She will do just fine as a sailor.

(JAXAshby) wrote:

a.) it was condescending to women,

Only in your fevered mind, apparently.

b.) all lines led aft both dramaticly increases friction and the chance of
failure in high wind conditions, it also makes one psychologically unable to
go
forward under conditions when one HAS to go forward, and

It can, but usually doesn't unless there are a number of unnecessary
turns. Internal halyards aren't usually carried away by the wind, and
if it's that high, tearing out your Spinlock is the least of your
worries.

If what you were saying had much validity, we wouldn't have roller
furling. Almost all cruisers do. I don't, and thus have that "real
world" experience you so rarely believe others except yourself to
possess.

c.) the center cockpit vs aft cockpit is a far more serious discussion that
to
say it is better for the "little lady to see over".

Well, it's also better for the little man, I suppose, but my five foot
tall wife is quite happy on the tiller of my 34' C&C design in 35
knots. Other stronger, taller women and any number of men wouldn't be.
The preference is as much personal as practical. These days, Mini Me
can drive a Volvo 60 with the right equipment...so physicality is no
obstacle. Attitude and comfort levels are. Ellen MacArthur is five
two, after all, and she's probably in the top five ocean racer list.


The reason people like cc boats is that they get a full width aft stateroom.


That's *one* reason.

To get that aft stateroom they get a lower performing boat, and a boat that
usually can not have an effective windwave set up.

I'll have to tell my center-cockpit ketch owning buddy to return that
Voyager windvane, then. He obviously doesn't know when he's being
steered effectively.

Wendy has stated she wants
an ocean going boat to go ocean going (trying to cross serious bluewater
without a windvane is kinda dumb, unless one is motoring the entire way.
Also,
electric auto pilots have serious reliability issues, burn LOTS of hard to
replace amps, and don't steer well as the winds pick up, just the area where
wind vanes come into their own).

I actually agree with you, JAX. Windvane and autopilot fill each
others' gaps, as last month's Cruising World article putting the two
devices head-to-head in ocean conditions demonstrated. Where I differ
is in positing that self-steering and a center-cockpit boat are
necessarily opposed. They aren't.

She also wants something under 40 feet (ALL
cc boats under 40 ar Ugh Lee, and really poor performers to boot), and
perhaps
as small as 30 feet (only really weird duck boats have cc's under 35 feet).

ALL of them, eh? That sailing simulator you own is some piece of work,
JAX. Anyway, thanks for being the gallant arbiter of insult to females
everywhere. I'm sure you are in many prayers tonight.

"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
btw, rhys, have *you* ever purposely spun an airplane?(indeed, do you even
know
how?) Wendy has, for the fun of it. She will do just fine as a sailor.

Flying is flying, and sailing is sailing. I think they are two different
and distinct skill sets, and proficiency in one will not necessarily
indicate proficiency in the other, navigation notwithsanding. While events
occur much more rapidly in an airplane than in a boat, what is more
important is that the dimensional and situational aspects are completely
different, and thus require different skill sets. I can fly. I can't sail-
haven't got a clue what to do when decision time rolls around as regards
reefing, what sail to set, etc. The fact that I was able to learn how to
fly indicates that I might be able to learn how to sail. No more, no less.

Wendy

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:32:13 GMT, "Wendy"
wrote:


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
btw, rhys, have *you* ever purposely spun an airplane?(indeed, do you even
know
how?) Wendy has, for the fun of it. She will do just fine as a sailor.

Flying is flying, and sailing is sailing. I think they are two different
and distinct skill sets, and proficiency in one will not necessarily
indicate proficiency in the other, navigation notwithsanding. While events
occur much more rapidly in an airplane than in a boat, what is more
important is that the dimensional and situational aspects are completely
different, and thus require different skill sets. I can fly. I can't sail-
haven't got a clue what to do when decision time rolls around as regards
reefing, what sail to set, etc. The fact that I was able to learn how to
fly indicates that I might be able to learn how to sail. No more, no less.

You will be able to learn to sail. It is flying (gliding) at the
boundary between two fluids, with foils scaled to fit the fluid. But
Please!! learn to sail before you start worrying about what kind of
boat you want.

You will learn to sail fastest in a boat barely big enough to hold
you. That is because you will feel the effect of everything you do
very soon.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 03:32:13 GMT, "Wendy"
wrote:


"JAXAshby" wrote in message
...
btw, rhys, have *you* ever purposely spun an airplane?(indeed, do you even
know
how?) Wendy has, for the fun of it. She will do just fine as a sailor.

Flying is flying, and sailing is sailing. I think they are two different
and distinct skill sets, and proficiency in one will not necessarily
indicate proficiency in the other, navigation notwithsanding. While events
occur much more rapidly in an airplane than in a boat, what is more
important is that the dimensional and situational aspects are completely
different, and thus require different skill sets. I can fly. I can't sail-
haven't got a clue what to do when decision time rolls around as regards
reefing, what sail to set, etc. The fact that I was able to learn how to
fly indicates that I might be able to learn how to sail. No more, no less.

You will be able to learn to sail. It is flying (gliding) at the
boundary between two fluids, with foils scaled to fit the fluid. But
Please!! learn to sail before you start worrying about what kind of
boat you want.

You will learn to sail fastest in a boat barely big enough to hold
you. That is because you will feel the effect of everything you do
very soon.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

The meme for blind faith secures its own perpetuation by the
simple unconscious expedient of discouraging rational inquiry.
- Richard Dawkins, "Viruses of the Mind"

Wendy, you will do fine. btw, I crewed on a boat owned by a Navy pilot and it
turned out all the rest of the crew had flying experience as well. Owner never
said he chose crew for flying experience, but it seems likely.

flying skills are mostly different from sailing skills (nav, as you said is
much the same), but the talent necessary to do either is the same. Good
sailors as well as good flyers have excellent coordination, can sense when
things have changed, notice a 50 rpm increase of decrease in the engine, hear
the difference in sounds of the air with tiny changes in speed, understand
weather (pilots probably far more so than sailors), keep their eyes open and
don't do dumb things, to name just a few. That you don't have the "muscle
memory" for sailing yet doesn't mean you won't get it. You will, and probably
quite quickly. Besides, the VAST majority of sailing is under pretty benign
conditions, even more so with good planning. Lin and Larry Pardy say in all
thei years on the water they have seen really nasty conditions only about 1 day
in a hundred, and Lin says the only time they got knocked down was the time she
(she takes blames for the decision, as apparently she does most of the
navigation planning) felt they were pushing their luck a bit leaving port when
they did, but they were getting a little cocky. (Sorta like the pilot who
takes off with ceilings at 2,000 feet and lowering who convinces himself the
cover will break up). Lin Pardy's voyage planning is so thorough she and Larry
sailed from South Africa to Brazil (across that nasty piece of water called the
South Atlantic) and never saw winds above 25 knots.

flying story: my baby bro when learning to fly had his instructor tell him of
a flight the instructor made in known icing condition, the plane gradually
getting heavier, the carb heat on full and the rpm dropping. The guy landed on
a short, unused runway of an abandoned airport (freeway had been built through
it), let the engine run until the carb ice melted while he banged the ice off
the wings with a gloved hand, then took off again to continue his flight. My
brother's flight instructor, on a training flight, told him that. Go figure.

Wendy, you will be fine. And remember what what Chuck Yeager said about
"widow-maker" airplanes, i.e. everytime you hear a pilot talk about one you
know you are talking with a pilot who will soon tell you that *he* successfully
flew that dangerously wicked aircraft. [grin] same in sailing, except the
doom and gloom sailors haven't sailed beyond the breakwater.

Wendy, you will do fine. btw, I crewed on a boat owned by a Navy pilot and it
turned out all the rest of the crew had flying experience as well. Owner never
said he chose crew for flying experience, but it seems likely.

flying skills are mostly different from sailing skills (nav, as you said is
much the same), but the talent necessary to do either is the same. Good
sailors as well as good flyers have excellent coordination, can sense when
things have changed, notice a 50 rpm increase of decrease in the engine, hear
the difference in sounds of the air with tiny changes in speed, understand
weather (pilots probably far more so than sailors), keep their eyes open and
don't do dumb things, to name just a few. That you don't have the "muscle
memory" for sailing yet doesn't mean you won't get it. You will, and probably
quite quickly. Besides, the VAST majority of sailing is under pretty benign
conditions, even more so with good planning. Lin and Larry Pardy say in all
thei years on the water they have seen really nasty conditions only about 1 day
in a hundred, and Lin says the only time they got knocked down was the time she
(she takes blames for the decision, as apparently she does most of the
navigation planning) felt they were pushing their luck a bit leaving port when
they did, but they were getting a little cocky. (Sorta like the pilot who
takes off with ceilings at 2,000 feet and lowering who convinces himself the
cover will break up). Lin Pardy's voyage planning is so thorough she and Larry
sailed from South Africa to Brazil (across that nasty piece of water called the
South Atlantic) and never saw winds above 25 knots.

flying story: my baby bro when learning to fly had his instructor tell him of
a flight the instructor made in known icing condition, the plane gradually
getting heavier, the carb heat on full and the rpm dropping. The guy landed on
a short, unused runway of an abandoned airport (freeway had been built through
it), let the engine run until the carb ice melted while he banged the ice off
the wings with a gloved hand, then took off again to continue his flight. My
brother's flight instructor, on a training flight, told him that. Go figure.

Wendy, you will be fine. And remember what what Chuck Yeager said about
"widow-maker" airplanes, i.e. everytime you hear a pilot talk about one you
know you are talking with a pilot who will soon tell you that *he* successfully
flew that dangerously wicked aircraft. [grin] same in sailing, except the
doom and gloom sailors haven't sailed beyond the breakwater.