At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter
advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any
size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything
below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above
it's rated
size).
Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers
are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing
differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together.
Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that
'bites' into the end of the paper roll.
Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it
into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to
disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there
is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion.
;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I believe that was for OIL not diesel.

Not much difference between diesel and oil.
Most definitely there is a difference. Lubricating oil is at engine
temperature which boils off the water vapor of combustion, therefore
virtually free of water (which digests the paper).
Not so in fuel oil - condensation and ground water leaks into the
storage tanks.

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I believe that was for OIL not diesel.

Not much difference between diesel and oil.
Most definitely there is a difference. Lubricating oil is at engine
temperature which boils off the water vapor of combustion, therefore
virtually free of water (which digests the paper).
Not so in fuel oil - condensation and ground water leaks into the
storage tanks.

Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here)

If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize'
and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of
an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the
surface area of a cylindrical paper roll.

Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight
basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter.
You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test
stand test regime ???? I think not.
Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or
gpm/psid??
Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier
average retention rating?


If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL.







In article , Keith
wrote:

You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration
like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the
link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or
Jr.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question.

Doug

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Doug Dotson" writes:
I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought
is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No
problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel
or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since
I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can
polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection
of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems
good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the
filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming
pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be
slow
when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump
(Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)?

Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball
valves.

You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion.

Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH.

I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the
Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here)

If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize'
and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of
an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the
surface area of a cylindrical paper roll.

Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight
basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter.
You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test
stand test regime ???? I think not.
Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or
gpm/psid??
Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier
average retention rating?


If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL.







In article , Keith
wrote:

You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface filtration
like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See the
link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1 or
Jr.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question.

Doug

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Doug Dotson" writes:
I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought
is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No
problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel
or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since
I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can
polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection
of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems
good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the
filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming
pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be
slow
when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump
(Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)?

Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze ball
valves.

You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion.

Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60 GPH.

I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the
Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:14:16 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:


At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter
advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any
size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything
below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above
it's rated
size).
Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers
are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing
differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together.
Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that
'bites' into the end of the paper roll.
Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it
into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to
disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there
is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion.
;-)

Apparently in my tank since after filtering quite a lot of fuel, the
paper elements come out in one hard solid piece. Even before I
installed the filters, I got tiny amounts of water in the bottom drain
of my Racor.

One other thing you're forgetting is that even if the paper element does
trap water (which of course it will if there is water in the fuel) the
water ends up staying on the bottom of the element because it's heavier
then the fuel, and since oil and water don't mix the water doesn't get
drawn up into the top part of the filter since it's already soaked in
oil. The fuel flows from bottom to top through the canister so any
"disintegrated" paper will be trapped by the water-free paper above it.
You have to significantly fill the canister with water before any water
impregnated paper "slurry" can possibly get out. If you have that much
of a water problem, you should be changing the elements frequently.

Steve

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 06:14:16 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:


At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter
advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any
size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything
below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above
it's rated
size).
Next time you get into this type of discussion, ask them how the fibers
are held together so that they dont release particles under increasing
differential pressure. You need a resin to hold the fibers together.
Then ask them how much particulate bypasses the 'knife edge' seal that
'bites' into the end of the paper roll.
Then get a glass of water, crumple up some of their paper roll, put it
into the glass of water. Wait to see how long the paper takes to
disintegrate into a slurry. Tell me where on this planet that there
is NO water in fuel oil, either as free water or as an emulsion.
;-)

Apparently in my tank since after filtering quite a lot of fuel, the
paper elements come out in one hard solid piece. Even before I
installed the filters, I got tiny amounts of water in the bottom drain
of my Racor.

One other thing you're forgetting is that even if the paper element does
trap water (which of course it will if there is water in the fuel) the
water ends up staying on the bottom of the element because it's heavier
then the fuel, and since oil and water don't mix the water doesn't get
drawn up into the top part of the filter since it's already soaked in
oil. The fuel flows from bottom to top through the canister so any
"disintegrated" paper will be trapped by the water-free paper above it.
You have to significantly fill the canister with water before any water
impregnated paper "slurry" can possibly get out. If you have that much
of a water problem, you should be changing the elements frequently.

Steve

http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/
Belgoes used to be a good supplier, but they're gone TU.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro
pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending
towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good
reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm
struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I believe that was for OIL not diesel.

Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Steve

Rufus wrote:
About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed
truck
and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper
towel
or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably
find the threads on google.

Rufus


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or
lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

http://www.gulfcoastfilters.com/
Belgoes used to be a good supplier, but they're gone TU.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro
pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending
towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good
reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm
struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I believe that was for OIL not diesel.

Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Steve

Rufus wrote:
About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed
truck
and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper
towel
or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably
find the threads on google.

Rufus


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or
lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty
fuel?
Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel, since
you are filtering through from one end to the other, while the racor only
filters through the pleated surface.

By the way, what do you mean by "de-polarize"? Are you saying that slime is
magnetic? Or that they are polar molecules, like water? Maybe that's how
those algae-x things work!

Can you quote the specs for all those test methods you mentioned for a
Racor... any racor/filter combination? Pick one.

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Thats entirely untrue (Im being 'kind' here)

If you generate a bacterial slime/gel, that slime will 'de-polarize'
and block the flow based on surface area. Just compare the surface of
an open spaced (pleats not toughing together) pleated filter versus the
surface area of a cylindrical paper roll.

Also show me ANY data that you have on removal capacity on a per weight
basis vs. particle retention for a "roll of paper" filter.
You can of course document to an industry wide standard OSU F-2 test
stand test regime ???? I think not.
Do you have any retention efficiencies versus face velocity or
gpm/psid??
Whats the wet-strength of a roll of Charmin? Bounty? What is thier
average retention rating?


If you cant, its just SNAKE-OIL.







In article , Keith
wrote:

You need to look at depth filtration for polishing vs. surface
filtration
like the Racors. They will clog up very fast if you have dirty fuel. See
the
link I posted earlier, and take a look at depth filters like the GCF F-1
or
Jr.

"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I don't have a filter problem, I have a pump question.

Doug

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Doug Dotson" writes:
I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought
is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No
problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel
or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since
I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can
polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection
of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems
good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the
filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a
priming
pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be
slow
when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump
(Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR
500)?

Have built the system above which BTW, uses a lot of 1/2" bronze
ball
valves.

You solve the filter problem in a straight forward fashion.

Multiple filters (Larger than 500) in parallel to reach at least 60
GPH.

I'd built in a safety margin and shoot for at least 75 GPH.

HTH


--
Lew

S/A: Challenge, The Bullet Proof Boat, (Under Construction in the
Southland)
Visit: http://home.earthlink.net/~lewhodgett for Pictures