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  #121   Report Post  
Steven Shelikoff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:36:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the pics of your system. Any suggestions on TP vs PT
filter?


I'd say that if you have the room, go for the big one. I didn't have
the room for the height of the PT filter so I went with 2 TP filters.
For the elements, I use the 1000 sheet Scott rolls. They're tightly
wound, dense, and when compressed into the cartridge and soaked in fuel
oil make a surprisingly solid mass. It's interesting that when you soak
a roll of TP in water, it falls apart but when you soak it in diesel, it
becomes a strong solid element.

Steve


"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably

do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.


That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they do
not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind
them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also
make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never had
a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.

That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom.

You

lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time
we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to
keep using until they get dirty.

could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of

the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.


That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to

either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change

the
filter element easily & quickly.


My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little
less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of them
required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can
change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the
engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the
system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the
GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's
necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them
properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on
really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably
keep the engine running.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them
and not pay much.


The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when
the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the
amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a long
time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the
elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you
carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the
problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the
fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the
system installed for future use.

I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the
GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used
them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for
me, they're working great.

Steve




  #122   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump



Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


I believe that was for OIL not diesel.



Not much difference between diesel and oil.


Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content,
contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for
being filtered in the first place. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

  #123   Report Post  
Glenn Ashmore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump



Steven Shelikoff wrote:
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:


I believe that was for OIL not diesel.



Not much difference between diesel and oil.


Not much other than viscosity, flow rate, condensate content,
contaminants filtered, use of the product being filtered and reason for
being filtered in the first place. :-)

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

  #124   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro
pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending
towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good
reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm
struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I believe that was for OIL not diesel.


Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Steve

Rufus wrote:
About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed

truck
and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper

towel
or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably
find the threads on google.

Rufus


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com




  #125   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

From all the empirical evidence I have decided to use a Gulf Coast
filter followed by a Raycor with a 2 uM element and a Walbro
pump. Anyone have a source for the Gulf Coast filter? I'm tending
towards the larger paper towel version unless someone has good
reason that the smaller toilet paper version will be sufficient. I'm
struggling with using quilted vs perfumed vs little flowers though

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:17:43 -0500, Glenn Ashmore
wrote:

I believe that was for OIL not diesel.


Not much difference between diesel and oil.

Steve

Rufus wrote:
About 4 years ago there was a couple guys on the group who managed

truck
and heavy equipment fleets. They swore by the paper filters (paper

towel
or TP) and used them on their own personal trucks. You could probably
find the threads on google.

Rufus


--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com






  #126   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My
tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything
bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return
for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to
fashion a second unit at the opposite end.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Len Krauss" wrote in message
...
That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler
hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a
three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock --
which would simplify things.
Len

I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing.
Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the
opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed
up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so

draining
out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy.

Doug

"Len Krauss" wrote in message
...
Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow

thru
a
polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system.

Some
time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for

20-25psi.
I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my

engine.
Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way

is
variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all

fuel
being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum

around
10
psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is

getting
clogged.

As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air

around
the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air

hose,
and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it

around.
He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to

help
keep particulate matter in suspension.

Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart

or
two
off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this,
discarding the water, until no more is seen.

FWIW.
Len

--
Eliminate "ns" for email address.








  #127   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

I'm building a whole new unit for all the uptakes and returns. My
tanks are built-in. Integral to the hull. A plate containing everything
bolts through the top of the tank. But if I decide to place the return
for the polishing system at the opposite end of the tank, I'll have to
fashion a second unit at the opposite end.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Len Krauss" wrote in message
...
That works. I put the pickup at bottom and return at top thru the filler
hole. Some people use the tank return -- they remove hose or have a
three-way valve. You might be able to connect a hose to your draincock --
which would simplify things.
Len

I had thought of a bubbling mechanism to stir the tank while polishing.
Also thought if the return from the polishing system was placed at the
opposite end of the tank from the uptake it might keep things mixed
up a bit. I have a draincock at the lowest of each of my tanks so

draining
out water and a bit of sediment is pretty easy.

Doug

"Len Krauss" wrote in message
...
Concerns were expressed on this thread about pulling too much flow

thru
a
polishing filter. I polish with a Racor 500 in a stand-alone system.

Some
time ago I called Racor and found out it's cartridge is rated for

20-25psi.
I equipped my polishing system with a vacuum gauge, same as on my

engine.
Vacuum can then be monitored and regulated in a couple ways. One way

is
variable speed pump. The other uses a bypass valve, so that not all

fuel
being pumped goes thru pump. I'll usually keep the filter vacuum

around
10
psi to be conservative. When it rises 5psi that's sign the filter is

getting
clogged.

As for stirring up the crud, one guy told me he shoots a jet of air

around
the bottom of his tanks. Has a small L-shaped copper tube on an air

hose,
and with it tied to a dowel/rod pushes it to bottom and "aims" it

around.
He'll them sometimes just let the thing bubble away while polishing to

help
keep particulate matter in suspension.

Before "bubbling" the tank or doing anything else, first pump a quart

or
two
off the bottom into glass jar and check for water. And continue this,
discarding the water, until no more is seen.

FWIW.
Len

--
Eliminate "ns" for email address.








  #128   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Ah, now I see why you have 2 TP units. I'll have to do some
measuring and see what I can accomodate.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:36:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the pics of your system. Any suggestions on TP vs PT
filter?


I'd say that if you have the room, go for the big one. I didn't have
the room for the height of the PT filter so I went with 2 TP filters.
For the elements, I use the 1000 sheet Scott rolls. They're tightly
wound, dense, and when compressed into the cartridge and soaked in fuel
oil make a surprisingly solid mass. It's interesting that when you soak
a roll of TP in water, it falls apart but when you soak it in diesel, it
becomes a strong solid element.

Steve


"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can

filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of

crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel

polishing.

IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They

probably
do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.

That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they

do
not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind
them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also
make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never

had
a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.

That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom.

You

lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time
we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to
keep using until they get dirty.

could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead

of
the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.

That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to

either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change

the
filter element easily & quickly.

My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little
less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of

them
required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can
change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the
engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the
system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the
GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's
necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them
properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on
really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably
keep the engine running.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of

them
and not pay much.

The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when
the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the
amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a

long
time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the
elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you
carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the
problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the
fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the
system installed for future use.

I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the
GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used
them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for
me, they're working great.

Steve






  #129   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Ah, now I see why you have 2 TP units. I'll have to do some
measuring and see what I can accomodate.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:36:38 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

Thanks for the pics of your system. Any suggestions on TP vs PT
filter?


I'd say that if you have the room, go for the big one. I didn't have
the room for the height of the PT filter so I went with 2 TP filters.
For the elements, I use the 1000 sheet Scott rolls. They're tightly
wound, dense, and when compressed into the cartridge and soaked in fuel
oil make a surprisingly solid mass. It's interesting that when you soak
a roll of TP in water, it falls apart but when you soak it in diesel, it
becomes a strong solid element.

Steve


"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can

filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of

crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel

polishing.

IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They

probably
do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.

That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they

do
not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind
them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also
make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never

had
a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.

That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom.

You

lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time
we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to
keep using until they get dirty.

could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead

of
the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.

That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to

either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change

the
filter element easily & quickly.

My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little
less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of

them
required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can
change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the
engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the
system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the
GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's
necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them
properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on
really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably
keep the engine running.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of

them
and not pay much.

The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when
the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the
amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a

long
time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the
elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you
carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the
problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the
fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the
system installed for future use.

I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the
GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used
them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for
me, they're working great.

Steve






  #130   Report Post  
Jed
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

WHAT A ****TY MESS -


On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 23:29:11 GMT, (Steven
Shelikoff) wrote:

Here's a picture of my installation.

http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg

The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor
after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't
visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the
oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass
the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime
the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The
pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the
vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump.

Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg

Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare. But it's all pretty straight
foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except
for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor
and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple
of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an
element change.




"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?

RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve




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