Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.

That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You
could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the
filter element easily & quickly.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them
and not pay much.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sounds good but it might take a while.

Doug Dotson wrote:
Take a while to what? Polish the tank?

Transfer is what I was thinking of. It's a good idea to have a polishing system
that you can run underway so when the tanks start sloshing, you can get the crud
that is getting stirred up out of there.


.... A polishing system recirculates and each
pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a
fancy
sieve. I dunno.

Sounds good in theory, and as Steve says his TP filters get a lot of gunk out of
there. But I still have no confidence at all that they are not shedding gunk
too. So, if a TP filter grabs X amount of gunk on Y passes, then a proper filter
element would grab ? on fewer passes? Of course you need to change it, and a lot
of the paper towel/TP filter theory seems to revolve around the idea that you
shouldn't have to change filter elements, which is silly IMHO. Filter elements
are the cheapest insurance you can get for your engine.

BTW set up the polishing/transfer pump so it can be priming pump too. Saves a
lot of hassle.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Sounds good but it might take a while.

Doug Dotson wrote:
Take a while to what? Polish the tank?

Transfer is what I was thinking of. It's a good idea to have a polishing system
that you can run underway so when the tanks start sloshing, you can get the crud
that is getting stirred up out of there.


.... A polishing system recirculates and each
pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a
fancy
sieve. I dunno.

Sounds good in theory, and as Steve says his TP filters get a lot of gunk out of
there. But I still have no confidence at all that they are not shedding gunk
too. So, if a TP filter grabs X amount of gunk on Y passes, then a proper filter
element would grab ? on fewer passes? Of course you need to change it, and a lot
of the paper towel/TP filter theory seems to revolve around the idea that you
shouldn't have to change filter elements, which is silly IMHO. Filter elements
are the cheapest insurance you can get for your engine.

BTW set up the polishing/transfer pump so it can be priming pump too. Saves a
lot of hassle.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug,

My poslishing/transfer system will be totally separate from the
engine system. I do have an electric priming pump that is a godsend.
Plan on installing dual electric lift pumps on the engine.

Doug

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Sounds good but it might take a while.

Doug Dotson wrote:
Take a while to what? Polish the tank?

Transfer is what I was thinking of. It's a good idea to have a polishing
system
that you can run underway so when the tanks start sloshing, you can get
the crud
that is getting stirred up out of there.


.... A polishing system recirculates and each
pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just
a
fancy
sieve. I dunno.

Sounds good in theory, and as Steve says his TP filters get a lot of gunk
out of
there. But I still have no confidence at all that they are not shedding
gunk
too. So, if a TP filter grabs X amount of gunk on Y passes, then a proper
filter
element would grab ? on fewer passes? Of course you need to change it, and
a lot
of the paper towel/TP filter theory seems to revolve around the idea that
you
shouldn't have to change filter elements, which is silly IMHO. Filter
elements
are the cheapest insurance you can get for your engine.

BTW set up the polishing/transfer pump so it can be priming pump too.
Saves a
lot of hassle.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Doug,

My poslishing/transfer system will be totally separate from the
engine system. I do have an electric priming pump that is a godsend.
Plan on installing dual electric lift pumps on the engine.

Doug

"DSK" wrote in message
...
Sounds good but it might take a while.

Doug Dotson wrote:
Take a while to what? Polish the tank?

Transfer is what I was thinking of. It's a good idea to have a polishing
system
that you can run underway so when the tanks start sloshing, you can get
the crud
that is getting stirred up out of there.


.... A polishing system recirculates and each
pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just
a
fancy
sieve. I dunno.

Sounds good in theory, and as Steve says his TP filters get a lot of gunk
out of
there. But I still have no confidence at all that they are not shedding
gunk
too. So, if a TP filter grabs X amount of gunk on Y passes, then a proper
filter
element would grab ? on fewer passes? Of course you need to change it, and
a lot
of the paper towel/TP filter theory seems to revolve around the idea that
you
shouldn't have to change filter elements, which is silly IMHO. Filter
elements
are the cheapest insurance you can get for your engine.

BTW set up the polishing/transfer pump so it can be priming pump too.
Saves a
lot of hassle.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:33:12 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

Your approach is pretty much the solution I am tending towards. Polish
using a papertowel filter followed by a Raycor. I also can't believe that
some dust dosen't come out of the PT filter so a Raycor following seems
the solution.

Here's a picture of my installation.

http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg

The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor
after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't
visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the
oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass
the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime
the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The
pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the
vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump.

Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg

Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare. But it's all pretty straight
foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except
for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor
and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple
of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an
element change.




"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?

RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:33:12 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

Steve,

Your approach is pretty much the solution I am tending towards. Polish
using a papertowel filter followed by a Raycor. I also can't believe that
some dust dosen't come out of the PT filter so a Raycor following seems
the solution.

Here's a picture of my installation.

http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image20.jpg

The two GCF filters are the black cylinders center left. The Racor
after them is the white one lower left. The engine final filter isn't
visible but it's just behind the air intake, which is just behind the
oil fill. The plumbing behind the filters lets me do things like bypass
the filters so I can change them when the engine is running, power prime
the engine, shutoff fuel to the engine while I'm polishing, etc. The
pump isn't visible but the hose in front coming off the Racor with the
vacuum gauge on it leads to the pump.

Closer up, http://members.ispwest.com/shelikoff/trip/Image18.jpg

Yes, it looks like a plumbers nightmare. But it's all pretty straight
foward to figure out and operate. Normally, all valves are open except
for the one letting fuel bypass the GCF filters. There are 3 vacuum
gauges, one before the GCF filters, one between the GCF and the Racor
and one after the Racor. If the vacuum difference is more then a couple
of lbs between the input and output of a filter, it's time for an
element change.




"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?

RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.

That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they do
not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind
them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also
make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never had
a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.

That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You

lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time
we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to
keep using until they get dirty.

could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.

That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the
filter element easily & quickly.

My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little
less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of them
required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can
change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the
engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the
system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the
GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's
necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them
properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on
really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably
keep the engine running.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them
and not pay much.

The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when
the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the
amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a long
time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the
elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you
carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the
problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the
fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the
system installed for future use.

I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the
GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used
them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for
me, they're working great.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:01:15 -0500, DSK wrote:

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.

That hasn't been my experience with them. My experience is that they do
not shed significantly (they haven't clogged the 2 micron Racor behind
them yet) and that they do trap a lot of particles. I guess they also
make good water separaters but I wouldn't know that since I've never had
a problem with water in my fuel even before I put on the GCF filters.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.

That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You

lol, not quite. Otherwise, we'd be changing Racor elements every time
we start the engine. Unlike condoms, the Racor elements are safe to
keep using until they get dirty.

could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.

That also hasn't been anywhere near my experience.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the
filter element easily & quickly.

My Racor is very easy to change. The engine mounted filter a little
less easy, but it's still only a 10 minute job. Changing either of them
required bleeding the fuel system though. With what I have now, I can
change either the GCF filter or the Racor and not get any air into the
engine. I can shut off fuel to the engine and bleed the part of the
system with those filters with the walbro pump. I can even change the
GCF filters and bypass them to keep the engine running if it's
necessary. I do have to shut off fuel to the engine to bleed them
properly, although filling them with fuel before putting the lid on
really helps there so if it was really an emergency, I could probably
keep the engine running.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them
and not pay much.

The main problem is that I had to change 2 of the Racor elements when
the engine died after operating only 20 minutes each. And with the
amount of crud in the tank, that trend was likely to continue for a long
time. That's totally unacceptable no matter how cheap you get the
elements (they're still expensive even by the case) or how many you
carry. The GCF 01-Jr filters before the Racor totally solved the
problem and cost me about the same as having the tank cleaned and the
fuel in it polished. Now, I have that accomplished and still have the
system installed for future use.

I know a lot of people here will tell you a lot of bad things about the
GCF PT or TP filters. But probably none of those people actually used
them to solve a specific problem. I have first hand experience and for
me, they're working great.

Steve

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 18:06:22 -0500, DSK wrote:

.... A polishing system recirculates and each pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a
fancy sieve. I dunno.

Sounds good in theory, and as Steve says his TP filters get a lot of gunk out of
there. But I still have no confidence at all that they are not shedding gunk
too.
/snip/
Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Actually, 'depth' filters sound TERRIBLE in theory.
Use a what?
A toilet roll? A kitchen roll? Gimme a break.

It is in practice that they do best.
Over the road operators brag repeatedly about astronomical mileages -
some of them practice only filter change and filter bowl oil make up
only... no complete oil changes.

Winnowing through the stuff from true believers, it looks like depth
filters can carry a much larger particle load and can filter to
smaller particulate sizes. They will certainly trap water, though I am
unsure how far that reduces the filtration efficiency and/or increases
particle transmission.

Depth filters have plenty of background: I ran an aircraft rated depth
filter made of deep cloth layers for five years in a light airplane.
The brand was "Winslow" You bet the price did not compare with a
kitchen roll however.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK