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#81
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
I'll check it out, thanks!
Doug "Charlie J" wrote in message ... Doug- RCI Fuel Purifiers have capacities from 1.5 to 400 gpm...they have no moving parts and no element to change. The purification is done with baffle and coalescer plates. These purifiers remove particulate down to less than 10 microns and 99.9% of water. Their website is: http://www.rcipurifier.com/ In all honesty, I am associated with this company (and with Gulf Coast Filters) and I manufacture onboard fuel polishers. -- Charlie Johnson JTB Marine Service St. Petersburg, FL 727.560.9065 "Doug Dotson" wrote in message ... I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump (Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)? Thanks! Doug s/v Callista |
#82
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Doug Dotson wrote:
This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at any given time, the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and potentially ends up in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up as quickly is either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the gunk pass thru. QED My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. Sounds good but it might take a while. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they are indeed trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter the system. Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass" filters, ie on the pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not filter more than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact that paper towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#83
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Doug Dotson wrote:
This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at any given time, the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and potentially ends up in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up as quickly is either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the gunk pass thru. QED My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. Sounds good but it might take a while. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they are indeed trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter the system. Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass" filters, ie on the pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not filter more than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact that paper towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#84
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
#85
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
#86
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
"DSK" wrote in message ... Doug Dotson wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at any given time, the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and potentially ends up in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up as quickly is either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the gunk pass thru. QED The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that was clogging up most. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. Sounds good but it might take a while. Take a while to what? Polish the tank? I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they are indeed trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter the system. Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass" filters, ie on the pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not filter more than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact that paper towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure. According to RichH, the rated size of a filter is based upon what size particles it can remove on a single pass. A polishing system recirculates and each pass through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a fancy sieve. I dunno. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#87
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
"DSK" wrote in message ... Doug Dotson wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at any given time, the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and potentially ends up in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up as quickly is either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the gunk pass thru. QED The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that was clogging up most. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. Sounds good but it might take a while. Take a while to what? Polish the tank? I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle, down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they are indeed trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter the system. Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass" filters, ie on the pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not filter more than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact that paper towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure. According to RichH, the rated size of a filter is based upon what size particles it can remove on a single pass. A polishing system recirculates and each pass through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a fancy sieve. I dunno. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
#88
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Steve,
Your approach is pretty much the solution I am tending towards. Polish using a papertowel filter followed by a Raycor. I also can't believe that some dust dosen't come out of the PT filter so a Raycor following seems the solution. Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
#89
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Steve,
Your approach is pretty much the solution I am tending towards. Polish using a papertowel filter followed by a Raycor. I also can't believe that some dust dosen't come out of the PT filter so a Raycor following seems the solution. Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush to fill again. I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels? RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge. This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine. However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if* you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter. The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank, manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of fuel, like a half gallon. After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter condition with vacuum gauges. When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2 micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2 of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters. Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron. Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are working great for me. Steve |
#90
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Steven Shelikoff wrote:
..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud, large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing. IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do trap a lot of particles but also shed them. .... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel. A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location. That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either 1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the filter element easily & quickly. BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them and not pay much. Fresh Breezes- Doug King |
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