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  #81   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

I'll check it out, thanks!

Doug

"Charlie J" wrote in message
...
Doug-
RCI Fuel Purifiers have capacities from 1.5 to 400 gpm...they have no

moving
parts and no element to change. The purification is done with baffle and
coalescer plates. These purifiers remove particulate down to less than 10
microns and 99.9% of water. Their website is:

http://www.rcipurifier.com/

In all honesty, I am associated with this company (and with Gulf Coast
Filters) and I manufacture onboard fuel polishers.


--
Charlie Johnson
JTB Marine Service
St. Petersburg, FL
727.560.9065



"Doug Dotson" wrote in message
...
I am designing a fuel polishing and transfer system. My thought
is to use valves to route fuel from any tank to any tank. No
problem with that part. I want to be able to just transfer fuel
or switch in a filter to polish the fuel while transferring. Since
I can select the same tank for source and destination, I can
polish fuel in place as well. The problem comes with the selection
of a pump. I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems
good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the
filter when polishing. A Walbro fuel pump (which I have as a priming
pump now) seems like a good fit for polishing (33 GPH) but will be slow
when just transferring fuel. What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump
(Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)?

Thanks!
Doug
s/v Callista







  #82   Report Post  
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Doug Dotson wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly.


There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at any given time,
the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and potentially ends up
in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up as quickly is
either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the gunk pass
thru. QED


My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.


Sounds good but it might take a while.



I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated
size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they are indeed
trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter the system.
Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass" filters, ie on the
pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not filter more
than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact that paper
towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


  #83   Report Post  
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Doug Dotson wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly.


There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at any given time,
the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and potentially ends up
in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up as quickly is
either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the gunk pass
thru. QED


My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.


Sounds good but it might take a while.



I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through anything below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above it's rated
size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they are indeed
trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter the system.
Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass" filters, ie on the
pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not filter more
than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact that paper
towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King


  #84   Report Post  
Steven Shelikoff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve
  #85   Report Post  
Steven Shelikoff
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve


  #86   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Doug Dotson wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly.


There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at

any given time,
the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and

potentially ends up
in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up

as quickly is
either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the

gunk pass
thru. QED


The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching
the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that
was clogging up most.

My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.


Sounds good but it might take a while.


Take a while to what? Polish the tank?



I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter

advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any

size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through

anything below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above

it's rated
size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they

are indeed
trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter

the system.
Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass"

filters, ie on the
pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not

filter more
than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact

that paper
towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure.


According to RichH, the rated size of a filter is based upon what size
particles
it can remove on a single pass. A polishing system recirculates and each
pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a
fancy
sieve. I dunno.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King




  #87   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump


"DSK" wrote in message
...
Doug Dotson wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly.


There is a finite amount of filter-clogging gunk in your fuel system at

any given time,
the more of it gets in your filter, the less stays in the system (and

potentially ends up
in the injector pump & injectors). A filter element that does not clog up

as quickly is
either 1- bigger and can thus hold more gunk OR 2- is letting a lot of the

gunk pass
thru. QED


The filter on the engine seems to prevent ,ost remaining gunk from reaching
the injector pump and injectors. It must since it seems to be the one that
was clogging up most.

My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.


Sounds good but it might take a while.


Take a while to what? Polish the tank?



I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


At Trawlersfest I had two lengthy discussions with paper towel filter

advocates. Their
theory is that the random oriented strands of the paper towel can trap any

size particle,
down to sub-micron, instead of acting like a sieve to pass through

anything below a given
size (they like to avoid mentioning that the "sieve" stops anything above

it's rated
size). However they never explained why the filters don't clog up if they

are indeed
trapping particles, or why particles can't become dislodged and re-enter

the system.
Also, the paper towel systems they were advocating were all "bypass"

filters, ie on the
pressure regulator discharge rather than on the main loop, so they did not

filter more
than a small percentage of the fuel being pumped. This is due to the fact

that paper
towels can't withstand a very high differential pressure.


According to RichH, the rated size of a filter is based upon what size
particles
it can remove on a single pass. A polishing system recirculates and each
pass
through the filter removes more because a filter is much more than just a
fancy
sieve. I dunno.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King




  #88   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Steve,

Your approach is pretty much the solution I am tending towards. Polish
using a papertowel filter followed by a Raycor. I also can't believe that
some dust dosen't come out of the PT filter so a Raycor following seems
the solution.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve



  #89   Report Post  
Doug Dotson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Steve,

Your approach is pretty much the solution I am tending towards. Polish
using a papertowel filter followed by a Raycor. I also can't believe that
some dust dosen't come out of the PT filter so a Raycor following seems
the solution.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 11:03:52 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:

This helps alot, thanks! LaBomba suggested that just amking
the primary filter bigger would solve the problem. I was thinking
that this might be a easier solution, but it appears that a separate
polishing system does have advantages over just using a filter
that does not clog up so quickly. My intended strategy is to oly
fill one tank at a time, set the newly filled tank to polishing while
running the engine off of the other tank. Then when the engine
tank gets low, switch the engine to the polished tank, then
fill and polish the other tank. That way I always have clean
fuel ready and waiting (and plenty of it) and I don;t have to rush
to fill again.

I'm still in a quandry about Raycor style filters vs the paper towel
roll type. Perhaps RichH will chime in on this one since he is an
expert on filtration systems. Does Safeway carry 15 uM paper towels?


RichH doesn't like the paper towel or TP filters. He's said they shed
material and that they can pass some fluid unfiltered by the edge.
This, I agree, makes them unsuitable as the only filter for an engine.
However, I think they are great for fuel polishing very dirty fuel *if*
you have a good quality filter, like a Racor, after them to trap any
shed material and the tiny percentage of unfiltered fuel. For
recirculating fuel polishing, it doesn't matter if they let some
unfiltered fuel past since it'll get filtered next time around. And
I've found that the Racor beyond the paper filters last *much* longer
trapping the tiny amount of shed fibers from the TP filter then if they
got the dirty fuel directly without the TP filter.

The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.

On my boat, I got into some rough weather that stirred the fuel up and
clogged the Racor I had at the time in only around 20 mins. I put in my
backup element and it also clogged in around 20 mins. So I was stuck
without a filter. I ended up having to take fuel out of the main tank,
manually pour it through a funnel with a paper towel sheet in it like a
coffee filter and into another tank and run the engine from that with
only the primary engine filter beyond that. The paper towel sheet had
lots of black particles on it after filtering only a small amount of
fuel, like a half gallon.

After that experience, I installed a pair of the TP filters, the walbro
pump, etc., from the trawlerworld site. Without cleaning the tank, I've
not had a single dirty fuel problem since. The used TP rolls come out
with a lot of black on them. The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean. I monitor the filter
condition with vacuum gauges.

When I'm polishing, fuel goes through a pair of TP filters and then
through the 2 micron Racor and back to the tank. The fact that the 2
micron Racor is still clean after 2 years with a very dirty tank tells
me that the TP filters are doing something, especially since I clogged 2
of the Racors after 20 minutes without the TP filters.

Fuel going to the engine goes through one more filter, the engine
mounted final filter. I'm not sure what particle size that's rated for
but it's probably a 10 or 15 micron.

Yes, my results are entirely non-scientific. I've not done any
measurements of how well the filters are working. I only know they are
working great for me.

Steve



  #90   Report Post  
DSK
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fuel transfer/polishing pump

Steven Shelikoff wrote:

..The main advantage of the paper depth filters is that they can filter
down to very small particle size and they can hold a whole lot of crud,
large and small, without clogging up. IOW, perfect for fuel polishing.


IMHO the only benefit is that they soak up a lot of water. They probably do
trap a lot of particles but also shed them.

.... The Racor 2 micron filter that's past the
TP filters is now 2 years old and is still clean.


That's like bragging about how many times you can use the same condom. You
could have spent the same amount of money on filter elements instead of the
TP filter system, and have cleaner fuel.

A lot of boats have their primary fuel filter in a difficult location.
That's not an excuse to try and stretch the filter, it's a reason to either
1- buy a different boat or 2- remake the system so that you can change the
filter element easily & quickly.

BTW if you buy filter elements by the carton, you can carry a lot of them
and not pay much.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

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