In article , Keith
wrote:

What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty
fuel?
***** Not in comparison to a cylindrical paper roll. Or do you mean
that the efficiency of a toilt paper roll is soooooo low that it
captures virtually nothing except very large visible particles that is
continues to unload at the same rate that it captures.... and all the
while buirning up amperage to run the pump to overcome the high CLEAN
differential pressure required. If a filter plugs, then it did its job
!!!!!!!!!! Its not the job of a filter to pass particulate at its
designated retention rating. Whats the retention rating of toilet
paper ??????? .... why doesnt it plug up when hit with a slug of
particles???? Have any data on the residual particle level in a tank
after X passes through the 'filter'.
Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel,
***** How is the surface of a pleated filter less than the surface of a
cylinder?. Doesnt make sense. A typical pleated 2.5" dia. X 10"
filter has a surface area of 5 to 6 sq. ft. A toilet paper roll of
4.5" dia X 4" long has a surface of 0.4 square ft. Thats 12 to 15
times MORE surface area for the pleated for a normal recirc.
installation.
since
you are filtering through from one end to the other, while the racor only
filters through the pleated surface.

By the way, what do you mean by "de-polarize"?
***** Electropolization of the long chain agglomerated macro-molecules
..... same thing that probably allows a woman to get pregnenat once a
month. ...
Are you saying that slime is
magnetic?
*****NO
Or that they are polar molecules, like water?
***** Yes they can be
Maybe that's how
those algae-x things work!
Yes....But, I have NO idea (nor interest) about algae-x ... if it
works or not :-)
Can you quote the specs for all those test methods you mentioned for a
Racor... any racor/filter combination? Pick one.
Any 'reliable' filter manufactuerer uses (and can document compliance
to) the following data to compare filters. Those that cant or wont are
usually 'shysters' or are totally ignorant of filtration and offer
ratings that are ENTIRELY ARBITRARY (a kind word for: liars).
The test is a universal standardized test adopted ASTM. The test
curently used was developed about 1960 for comparisons of filtration
efficiency by the Oklahoma State University - called the OSU F2
test-stand (and defines a standardized test contaminent to establish
equal comparisons between filtration media) - its THE industry standard
for coarse filtration. A Racor type or other resinated pleated paper
will usually test out to a 'beta value' (log of upstream challenge to
downstream challenge between a beta value of 1000 - meaning about
95-98% weight efficiency. An unresinated paper upon increasing
differential pressure will ***unload*** at approximately a beta value
of 50 (less than ~25% efficiency). I am deeply involved in filtration
engineering and do consulting work that includes depth filters made of
cellulose (with binding resins). A cellulosic filter media needs a
binder for strength and sometimes the addition of Perlite to enhance
wet-strength .... or it simply compresses to stop flow OR falls apart
in the presence of water and other liquids. Commercial/Industrial
depth filters for fuel oil also sometimes include diatomaceous earth to
enhance the retention and service life .... plus the addition of
elemental starches for the absorbtion of free water (for 'trimming'
/absorbtion of water emulsion). Without a graded pore density a
cellulosic filter captures virutally ALL the particles on the surface
(cylinder). A paper made into toilet paper or paper towels is made
from very coarse fiber stock - poor permeability vs. flow AND contains
lots of small chopped fibers that they themselves are free to migrate
out of the paper matrix (particles themselves).

That a toilet paper filter works (at all) depends on LOW differential
pressure (or the cellulose compresses into a 'sludge') but does take
into account statistical particle reduction of multiple pass filtration
of recirculation mode. Its pretty false economy to have overpriced,
poorly performing/designed housings and then put in a poorly performing
'toilet paper' 'filter' that has NO certifiable retention rating, is
made from paper that is variable in density, is made from paper that is
specifically MADE TO DIGEST and FALL APART in the presence of
water/liquids. Fibers for toilet paper and paper towel rolls are NOT
arranged into a graded pore density (the retention of the upsteam
surface is larger than the downstream or exit portion of the depth of
media) such as a typical
TRUE depth filter': which means grade pore density....pores/cpature
sites get smaller as one goes deeper into the matrix. For a fixed pre
density (such a roll of toilet paper) what is not captured on the
surface can migrate all-the-way-through the 'filter. Your implication
of successive potential sucessive capture sites is only for VERY LARGE
particles as with smaller and smaller size particles the removal
mechanism of inertial impaction capture decrease logrithmically. A
roll of toilet paper will wrinkle-up into a 'little knot' when high
differential pressures are applied while UNLOADING most of the debris
that it originally captured. This 'technology' came out the
"oil-patch" in the 1920s, has been replaced by fixed pore, graded pore
density depth pads or cartridges (in the 1970s). A pleated resin bound
filter cartridge uses a vastly smaller filter housing. A pleated
paper. Typical true depth filtration in cartridge form requires
housings that are 5-10 times the size (cost) of a pleated configuration
-------- to do the same exact job.

The pleated resinated paper filter has VASTLY less resistance to flow,
has a defined retention rating, will allow the pump to deliver more
volumetric flow rate and at less amperage draw, requires smaller
housing (on an equal flow basis) @ first /installation cost, has
documented retention, flux. .... because of these advantages will
reduce the resident particles in a tank to nearly undetectable limits
****exponentially faster**** than a filter that inherently DOES NOT
FLOW and has poor retention ability, .... I guess an advantage is that
the amperage draw of such a toilet paper system can help heat the
interior of a boat in winter!

Please answer the following:
What is the collapse pressure of a toilet paper roll?
What is the particle retention rating on either an absolute basis or
'nominal' rating? How about a beta value? or do you just depends on
'dumb luck'.
What is the loss of efficiency due to the 'knife edge seals? What is
the percent of bypass at 30uM at the knife edge? 20uM, 10uM, 2uM
What is the wet strength rating?
What is the recommended flow rate of a toilet paper roll? How do you
'size' a toilet paper filter to operate at the low motive pressure of a
fuel system? Is it ....."Just BUY one and see if it works" ....
hardly!
Tell me which toilet paper mill makes a 'technical grade' of paper?
Tell again that a rolled paper filter is more efficient than a
'cartridge'. ... include the PRICE of the housing in your
evaluation/reply.
Whats the 'dirt capacity' of a to9ilet paper roll? A 2.5" dia X 10"
pleated typically has about 150 grams capacity..... an equivalent
cartridge true depth filter (in cartridge format) will have about 20-25
grams capacity.

;-)

All this discussion about filtration is actually misleading. If you
periodically inspect and or clean the tank occasionally, you will have
minimal problems.

Buy only 'fresh' fuel. Clean your tank every now and then. Use a
recirc. filtration system. Dont worry, be happy.

Fuel Oil ages and with time polymerizes into particulate which adhere
to the tank walls only to break loose when you dont want it to.
Bacterial infect the oil, use the iron components and oil as nutrients
and then form slimes that adhere to the tank walls. When these bacteria
die the cellular components make a thick soup. All these particles are
'grown' in the tank. The more the particles the more will form.
Occasional tank cleaning will keep the particulate load low and reduce
the need for filters.

The real answer is to get in and inspect & clean the tank on a routine
basis. Steam works best and you can usually get into most of the
hidden places even behind baffles, etc. If you cant get steam, then a
long handled brush and elbow grease will be of benefit.

Most fuel in the USA is quite clean. If you buy 'fresh' fuel from a
high volume distributor you will get very little 'old' oil. Dont
'store' lots of fuel in your tankage, buy what you need, and dont top
off the tank every time you need it. Find a way to drain the water
from the tank to retard bacteria growth.

Then ..... if you have a clean tank, fresh fuel .... the challenge to
the filters will be VERY minimal.

If anyone wants to see a schematic of my filtration system (with
independent recirc. system and emergency 'day' tank) send me an eMail
at remove the NOSPAM to send. My recirc.
system does virtually all the work, its so efficient that I'm thinking
about removing the complicated 'Racor Train' for a single small Racor
and a 'guard' filter. My 'day' tank will permit 2+ hours of running
without even changing a fully plugged filter - If I cant solve a fuel
problem in 2 hours, I shouldnt be sailing. My fuel system is a
pressure sytem instead of the typical vacuum system to enhance the
filter lifetime. I use gauges to monitor filter performance .... and so
far I havent had ANY challenge to the Racors in almost 5 years. I
clean out the tankage every two years. When I start travellilng to
the 'third world', I add a Baja filter to the delivery pipe to keep out
all the rocks stick and feathers.

Hope this helps.
:-)




In article , LaBomba182
wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

One poster mentioned that Raycor type filters
don;t make good polishing filters because they are surface filters and
clog up quickly.

Well, they would be wrong.
Like Glenn said, you need to use the right size filter for the job.

The paper towel and toilet paper types are better
for polishing.

Yeah no doubt. Things designed to wipe your kitchen counter and wipe your ass
will beat a Racor for filtering fuel everytime.

Next you'll be adding an Algea-X into the mix. :-)


Capt. Bill

All this discussion about filtration is actually misleading. If you
periodically inspect and or clean the tank occasionally, you will have
minimal problems.

Buy only 'fresh' fuel. Clean your tank every now and then. Use a
recirc. filtration system. Dont worry, be happy.

Fuel Oil ages and with time polymerizes into particulate which adhere
to the tank walls only to break loose when you dont want it to.
Bacterial infect the oil, use the iron components and oil as nutrients
and then form slimes that adhere to the tank walls. When these bacteria
die the cellular components make a thick soup. All these particles are
'grown' in the tank. The more the particles the more will form.
Occasional tank cleaning will keep the particulate load low and reduce
the need for filters.

The real answer is to get in and inspect & clean the tank on a routine
basis. Steam works best and you can usually get into most of the
hidden places even behind baffles, etc. If you cant get steam, then a
long handled brush and elbow grease will be of benefit.

Most fuel in the USA is quite clean. If you buy 'fresh' fuel from a
high volume distributor you will get very little 'old' oil. Dont
'store' lots of fuel in your tankage, buy what you need, and dont top
off the tank every time you need it. Find a way to drain the water
from the tank to retard bacteria growth.

Then ..... if you have a clean tank, fresh fuel .... the challenge to
the filters will be VERY minimal.

If anyone wants to see a schematic of my filtration system (with
independent recirc. system and emergency 'day' tank) send me an eMail
at remove the NOSPAM to send. My recirc.
system does virtually all the work, its so efficient that I'm thinking
about removing the complicated 'Racor Train' for a single small Racor
and a 'guard' filter. My 'day' tank will permit 2+ hours of running
without even changing a fully plugged filter - If I cant solve a fuel
problem in 2 hours, I shouldnt be sailing. My fuel system is a
pressure sytem instead of the typical vacuum system to enhance the
filter lifetime. I use gauges to monitor filter performance .... and so
far I havent had ANY challenge to the Racors in almost 5 years. I
clean out the tankage every two years. When I start travellilng to
the 'third world', I add a Baja filter to the delivery pipe to keep out
all the rocks stick and feathers.

Hope this helps.
:-)




In article , LaBomba182
wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

One poster mentioned that Raycor type filters
don;t make good polishing filters because they are surface filters and
clog up quickly.

Well, they would be wrong.
Like Glenn said, you need to use the right size filter for the job.

The paper towel and toilet paper types are better
for polishing.

Yeah no doubt. Things designed to wipe your kitchen counter and wipe your ass
will beat a Racor for filtering fuel everytime.

Next you'll be adding an Algea-X into the mix. :-)


Capt. Bill

Rich,

I wish that you would consider the emperical evidence rather
than just spouting theory, specs and standard tests. Have you ever used
a TP filter? Although theoretically they may not work because the
nature of the filter element has no quality control and other
characteristics, the bottom line is they do work. Why not look into
understanding why they do work rather than just, poo-pooing those
that do siting theory that is not supported by reallity. I understand the
bumble bee can't fly but I got stung by one while filtering questionable
fuel into my uncleanable tanks.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
All this discussion about filtration is actually misleading. If you
periodically inspect and or clean the tank occasionally, you will have
minimal problems.

Inspecting the tank periodically in my case is very impractical. Inspection
ports are in the side and are bolted and bedded into place. Cleaning
the tank periodically cost $600 a pop.

Buy only 'fresh' fuel. Clean your tank every now and then. Use a
recirc. filtration system. Dont worry, be happy.

Good theory. Not the reallity though. Bad fuel is a fact of life.

Fuel Oil ages and with time polymerizes into particulate which adhere
to the tank walls only to break loose when you dont want it to.
Bacterial infect the oil, use the iron components and oil as nutrients
and then form slimes that adhere to the tank walls. When these bacteria
die the cellular components make a thick soup. All these particles are
'grown' in the tank. The more the particles the more will form.
Occasional tank cleaning will keep the particulate load low and reduce
the need for filters.

And so will polishing. Tank cleaning is high effort and expense. Running a
polishing
system and changing the filters is less effort and lower cost.

The real answer is to get in and inspect & clean the tank on a routine
basis. Steam works best and you can usually get into most of the
hidden places even behind baffles, etc. If you cant get steam, then a
long handled brush and elbow grease will be of benefit.

I just haven;t been able to find an outfit that has steam cleaning equipment
in the out islands. Doing it myself using elbow grease isn't practical even
if
I could reach the whole tank using a long handled brush. When I'm out on
the hook, what do I do with the cruddy fuel. None of the places I have
visited has any practical means of disposing of bad fuel.

Most fuel in the USA is quite clean.

Sooooooooo WRONG. Most of the bad fuel I got came from the US
along the ICW.

If you buy 'fresh' fuel from a
high volume distributor you will get very little 'old' oil.

In the islands and along the ICW you buy fuel where you can find it.

Dont
'store' lots of fuel in your tankage, buy what you need, and dont top
off the tank every time you need it.

I've always been taught that partially filled tanks encourage condensation
and
topping off is the best way to prevent it. My tanks are what they are (95
gal ea).
I burn 1 GPH so 'storing' fuel is in effect a unavoidable situation.

Find a way to drain the water
from the tank to retard bacteria growth.

I have a drain cock at the lowest point in each tank. I drain them
periodically.
Water has never been a real problem.

Then ..... if you have a clean tank, fresh fuel .... the challenge to
the filters will be VERY minimal.

NO KIDDING! But I am forced to live in the real world!

If anyone wants to see a schematic of my filtration system (with
independent recirc. system and emergency 'day' tank) send me an eMail
at remove the NOSPAM to send.

Thanks, Rick! I'll send an email.

My recirc.
system does virtually all the work, its so efficient that I'm thinking
about removing the complicated 'Racor Train' for a single small Racor
and a 'guard' filter. My 'day' tank will permit 2+ hours of running
without even changing a fully plugged filter

But why do you neeed all this stuff since you clean your tanks regularly
and only buy clean fuel from a high volume distributor? Did I miss
something?

- If I cant solve a fuel
problem in 2 hours, I shouldnt be sailing.

At least you didn't say that if the rest of us are so ungifted we shouldn't
be sailing.

My fuel system is a
pressure sytem instead of the typical vacuum system to enhance the
filter lifetime.

Good idea from what I have been told. Although I was told that Raycors
are intended to be on the suction side. Is that wrong?

I use gauges to monitor filter performance ....

So have all the polishing systems I have seen.

and so
far I havent had ANY challenge to the Racors in almost 5 years. I
clean out the tankage every two years.

Your tanks must be more amenable to cleaning than mine. I wish I had
the luxury.

When I start travellilng to
the 'third world', I add a Baja filter to the delivery pipe to keep out
all the rocks stick and feathers.

Of course.

Hope this helps.
:-)




In article , LaBomba182
wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

One poster mentioned that Raycor type filters
don;t make good polishing filters because they are surface filters and
clog up quickly.

Well, they would be wrong.
Like Glenn said, you need to use the right size filter for the job.

The paper towel and toilet paper types are better
for polishing.

Yeah no doubt. Things designed to wipe your kitchen counter and wipe
your ass
will beat a Racor for filtering fuel everytime.

Next you'll be adding an Algea-X into the mix. :-)


Capt. Bill

Rich,

I wish that you would consider the emperical evidence rather
than just spouting theory, specs and standard tests. Have you ever used
a TP filter? Although theoretically they may not work because the
nature of the filter element has no quality control and other
characteristics, the bottom line is they do work. Why not look into
understanding why they do work rather than just, poo-pooing those
that do siting theory that is not supported by reallity. I understand the
bumble bee can't fly but I got stung by one while filtering questionable
fuel into my uncleanable tanks.

Doug
s/v Callista

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
All this discussion about filtration is actually misleading. If you
periodically inspect and or clean the tank occasionally, you will have
minimal problems.

Inspecting the tank periodically in my case is very impractical. Inspection
ports are in the side and are bolted and bedded into place. Cleaning
the tank periodically cost $600 a pop.

Buy only 'fresh' fuel. Clean your tank every now and then. Use a
recirc. filtration system. Dont worry, be happy.

Good theory. Not the reallity though. Bad fuel is a fact of life.

Fuel Oil ages and with time polymerizes into particulate which adhere
to the tank walls only to break loose when you dont want it to.
Bacterial infect the oil, use the iron components and oil as nutrients
and then form slimes that adhere to the tank walls. When these bacteria
die the cellular components make a thick soup. All these particles are
'grown' in the tank. The more the particles the more will form.
Occasional tank cleaning will keep the particulate load low and reduce
the need for filters.

And so will polishing. Tank cleaning is high effort and expense. Running a
polishing
system and changing the filters is less effort and lower cost.

The real answer is to get in and inspect & clean the tank on a routine
basis. Steam works best and you can usually get into most of the
hidden places even behind baffles, etc. If you cant get steam, then a
long handled brush and elbow grease will be of benefit.

I just haven;t been able to find an outfit that has steam cleaning equipment
in the out islands. Doing it myself using elbow grease isn't practical even
if
I could reach the whole tank using a long handled brush. When I'm out on
the hook, what do I do with the cruddy fuel. None of the places I have
visited has any practical means of disposing of bad fuel.

Most fuel in the USA is quite clean.

Sooooooooo WRONG. Most of the bad fuel I got came from the US
along the ICW.

If you buy 'fresh' fuel from a
high volume distributor you will get very little 'old' oil.

In the islands and along the ICW you buy fuel where you can find it.

Dont
'store' lots of fuel in your tankage, buy what you need, and dont top
off the tank every time you need it.

I've always been taught that partially filled tanks encourage condensation
and
topping off is the best way to prevent it. My tanks are what they are (95
gal ea).
I burn 1 GPH so 'storing' fuel is in effect a unavoidable situation.

Find a way to drain the water
from the tank to retard bacteria growth.

I have a drain cock at the lowest point in each tank. I drain them
periodically.
Water has never been a real problem.

Then ..... if you have a clean tank, fresh fuel .... the challenge to
the filters will be VERY minimal.

NO KIDDING! But I am forced to live in the real world!

If anyone wants to see a schematic of my filtration system (with
independent recirc. system and emergency 'day' tank) send me an eMail
at remove the NOSPAM to send.

Thanks, Rick! I'll send an email.

My recirc.
system does virtually all the work, its so efficient that I'm thinking
about removing the complicated 'Racor Train' for a single small Racor
and a 'guard' filter. My 'day' tank will permit 2+ hours of running
without even changing a fully plugged filter

But why do you neeed all this stuff since you clean your tanks regularly
and only buy clean fuel from a high volume distributor? Did I miss
something?

- If I cant solve a fuel
problem in 2 hours, I shouldnt be sailing.

At least you didn't say that if the rest of us are so ungifted we shouldn't
be sailing.

My fuel system is a
pressure sytem instead of the typical vacuum system to enhance the
filter lifetime.

Good idea from what I have been told. Although I was told that Raycors
are intended to be on the suction side. Is that wrong?

I use gauges to monitor filter performance ....

So have all the polishing systems I have seen.

and so
far I havent had ANY challenge to the Racors in almost 5 years. I
clean out the tankage every two years.

Your tanks must be more amenable to cleaning than mine. I wish I had
the luxury.

When I start travellilng to
the 'third world', I add a Baja filter to the delivery pipe to keep out
all the rocks stick and feathers.

Of course.

Hope this helps.
:-)




In article , LaBomba182
wrote:

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

One poster mentioned that Raycor type filters
don;t make good polishing filters because they are surface filters and
clog up quickly.

Well, they would be wrong.
Like Glenn said, you need to use the right size filter for the job.

The paper towel and toilet paper types are better
for polishing.

Yeah no doubt. Things designed to wipe your kitchen counter and wipe
your ass
will beat a Racor for filtering fuel everytime.

Next you'll be adding an Algea-X into the mix. :-)


Capt. Bill

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:32:11 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Keith
wrote:

What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty
fuel?
***** Not in comparison to a cylindrical paper roll. Or do you mean
that the efficiency of a toilt paper roll is soooooo low that it
captures virtually nothing except very large visible particles that is
continues to unload at the same rate that it captures.... and all the
while buirning up amperage to run the pump to overcome the high CLEAN
differential pressure required. If a filter plugs, then it did its job
!!!!!!!!!! Its not the job of a filter to pass particulate at its
designated retention rating. Whats the retention rating of toilet
paper ??????? .... why doesnt it plug up when hit with a slug of
particles???? Have any data on the residual particle level in a tank
after X passes through the 'filter'.

The roll would plug up when hit with a slug of particles. But it takes
much more particles to plug it up then with a pleated roll filter. BTW,
I don't have any data on the residual particle level in a tank after X
passes through the Racor filter either. That doesn't mean it's not
working.

Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel,
***** How is the surface of a pleated filter less than the surface of a
cylinder?. Doesnt make sense. A typical pleated 2.5" dia. X 10"
filter has a surface area of 5 to 6 sq. ft. A toilet paper roll of
4.5" dia X 4" long has a surface of 0.4 square ft. Thats 12 to 15
times MORE surface area for the pleated for a normal recirc.
installation.

Now I see where you're confused. You're thinking that particles are
trapped only at the surface of the roll exposed to the incoming fuel.
Well that's just not true. Unlike the pleated filter, the roll can trap
dirt several inches deep. That's why it can trap and hold so much more
particles without plugging... it has a huge volume of material to hold
the dirt and still let fuel pass. There's an exponential decay in the
amout of dirt trapped vs. the depth into the filter you go. Both the
pleated filter and the roll have their entire volume to trap dirt, not
just at the surface. However, the pleated filter *has* to trap dirt
near the surface or it won't get trapped at all since it's so thin.
That's not the case with the roll.

enhance the retention and service life .... plus the addition of
elemental starches for the absorbtion of free water (for 'trimming'
/absorbtion of water emulsion). Without a graded pore density a
cellulosic filter captures virutally ALL the particles on the surface
(cylinder). A paper made into toilet paper or paper towels is made

That hasn't been the case in my situation. When I pull a roll out and
try to peel it apart I can see visible black dirt at least 1/2" into the
roll. And I'm sure there's more further up that I can't see.

from very coarse fiber stock - poor permeability vs. flow AND contains
lots of small chopped fibers that they themselves are free to migrate
out of the paper matrix (particles themselves).

That a toilet paper filter works (at all) depends on LOW differential
pressure (or the cellulose compresses into a 'sludge') but does take

Of course. But you can have a low differential pressure when you're
talking about an element that's several inches to a foot thick.

into account statistical particle reduction of multiple pass filtration
of recirculation mode. Its pretty false economy to have overpriced,
poorly performing/designed housings and then put in a poorly performing
'toilet paper' 'filter' that has NO certifiable retention rating, is
made from paper that is variable in density, is made from paper that is

The fact that it does not have a certifiable retention rating, etc.,
doesn't necessarily mean that all of the tests wouldn't represent good
filtration. It only means that test results would not be repeatable.

specifically MADE TO DIGEST and FALL APART in the presence of
water/liquids. Fibers for toilet paper and paper towel rolls are NOT

Water, yes. Oil, no.

arranged into a graded pore density (the retention of the upsteam
surface is larger than the downstream or exit portion of the depth of
media) such as a typical
TRUE depth filter': which means grade pore density....pores/cpature

Again, just because it doesn't have a graded pore density doesn't mean
it doesn't work. It only means it would work better if it had a graded
pore density.

sites get smaller as one goes deeper into the matrix. For a fixed pre
density (such a roll of toilet paper) what is not captured on the
surface can migrate all-the-way-through the 'filter. Your implication

Of course it can. But so can it with a pleated edge filter. Again,
with the paper rolls, the amount of dirt trapped vs. depth into the
filter exhibits an exponential decline. If it had a graded pore
density, the decline would be more linear. I agree that's a better
situation. But again, that doesn't mean the paper rolls are not a good,
cost effective solution to fuel polishing.

of successive potential sucessive capture sites is only for VERY LARGE
particles as with smaller and smaller size particles the removal
mechanism of inertial impaction capture decrease logrithmically. A
roll of toilet paper will wrinkle-up into a 'little knot' when high
differential pressures are applied while UNLOADING most of the debris
that it originally captured. This 'technology' came out the

Which is why you monitor the filter with vacuum gauges and change it
when the differential reaches more than an couple of pounds.

The pleated resinated paper filter has VASTLY less resistance to flow,
has a defined retention rating, will allow the pump to deliver more
volumetric flow rate and at less amperage draw, requires smaller
housing (on an equal flow basis) @ first /installation cost, has
documented retention, flux. .... because of these advantages will
reduce the resident particles in a tank to nearly undetectable limits
****exponentially faster**** than a filter that inherently DOES NOT
FLOW and has poor retention ability, .... I guess an advantage is that
the amperage draw of such a toilet paper system can help heat the
interior of a boat in winter!

Again, you're showing your inexperience with these fuel polishing
systems. The walbro pump used with these systems doesn't draw more or
heat up if it's flow is constricted. It uses magnetic sensing of the
piston travel to activate the pump. So when the fuel flow rate slows
down, so does the pumping without drawing any more power. In fact, the
way it operates, it actually draws less power as the flow rate slows
down. Yet another way (besides the vacuum gauges) to tell if your
filters are getting clogged is to listen to the pump. You can hear the
"ticking" get slower as the flow rate diminishes.

Please answer the following:
What is the collapse pressure of a toilet paper roll?
What is the particle retention rating on either an absolute basis or
'nominal' rating? How about a beta value? or do you just depends on
'dumb luck'.
What is the loss of efficiency due to the 'knife edge seals? What is
the percent of bypass at 30uM at the knife edge? 20uM, 10uM, 2uM
What is the wet strength rating?
What is the recommended flow rate of a toilet paper roll? How do you
'size' a toilet paper filter to operate at the low motive pressure of a
fuel system? Is it ....."Just BUY one and see if it works" ....
hardly!
Tell me which toilet paper mill makes a 'technical grade' of paper?
Tell again that a rolled paper filter is more efficient than a
'cartridge'. ... include the PRICE of the housing in your
evaluation/reply.
Whats the 'dirt capacity' of a to9ilet paper roll? A 2.5" dia X 10"
pleated typically has about 150 grams capacity..... an equivalent
cartridge true depth filter (in cartridge format) will have about 20-25
grams capacity.

I can't answer any of the below questions for my Racor either. But that
doesn't mean I don't think it works.

Now I have some questions for you. Please answer the following:
Why do you think my 2 micron Racor is not pluged up after installing the
TP filters and running for about 40 hours off of the same fuel that,
before installing the TP filters, completely clogged 2 Racor elements in
a row after 20 minutes each?

Why, when changing the TP filters, do they come out hard and solid with
no noticable disintegration, black on the bottom up to about 1/2" deep
but nice and red at the top?

While there are some black streaks on the side of the element that go up
further then 1/2" (some are maybe 2 or 3 inches long) indicating some
fluid going up the side between the canister and the roll, why have none
of the black streakes ever reached the top of the roll, indicating that
the fuel is still being filtered even as it passes up along the
cartridge side? (I do compress the roll in fairly tightly when
installing it and they are still slightly compressed against the side
when I pull them out.)

All I can suggest to you is "Just BUY one and see if it works" ....

I think you'll find that if you have a dirty fuel problem, this will be
one of the most cost effective solutions to fix it. Of course, if you
don't already have a fuel problem that's bad enough to be clogging up
Racors in only 20 minutes, you won't notice a benefit over just the
Racor.

Steve

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:32:11 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

In article , Keith
wrote:

What's untrue? That a racor element will clog up very fast if you have dirty
fuel?
***** Not in comparison to a cylindrical paper roll. Or do you mean
that the efficiency of a toilt paper roll is soooooo low that it
captures virtually nothing except very large visible particles that is
continues to unload at the same rate that it captures.... and all the
while buirning up amperage to run the pump to overcome the high CLEAN
differential pressure required. If a filter plugs, then it did its job
!!!!!!!!!! Its not the job of a filter to pass particulate at its
designated retention rating. Whats the retention rating of toilet
paper ??????? .... why doesnt it plug up when hit with a slug of
particles???? Have any data on the residual particle level in a tank
after X passes through the 'filter'.

The roll would plug up when hit with a slug of particles. But it takes
much more particles to plug it up then with a pleated roll filter. BTW,
I don't have any data on the residual particle level in a tank after X
passes through the Racor filter either. That doesn't mean it's not
working.

Actually the "surface area" would be much greater in a paper towel,
***** How is the surface of a pleated filter less than the surface of a
cylinder?. Doesnt make sense. A typical pleated 2.5" dia. X 10"
filter has a surface area of 5 to 6 sq. ft. A toilet paper roll of
4.5" dia X 4" long has a surface of 0.4 square ft. Thats 12 to 15
times MORE surface area for the pleated for a normal recirc.
installation.

Now I see where you're confused. You're thinking that particles are
trapped only at the surface of the roll exposed to the incoming fuel.
Well that's just not true. Unlike the pleated filter, the roll can trap
dirt several inches deep. That's why it can trap and hold so much more
particles without plugging... it has a huge volume of material to hold
the dirt and still let fuel pass. There's an exponential decay in the
amout of dirt trapped vs. the depth into the filter you go. Both the
pleated filter and the roll have their entire volume to trap dirt, not
just at the surface. However, the pleated filter *has* to trap dirt
near the surface or it won't get trapped at all since it's so thin.
That's not the case with the roll.

enhance the retention and service life .... plus the addition of
elemental starches for the absorbtion of free water (for 'trimming'
/absorbtion of water emulsion). Without a graded pore density a
cellulosic filter captures virutally ALL the particles on the surface
(cylinder). A paper made into toilet paper or paper towels is made

That hasn't been the case in my situation. When I pull a roll out and
try to peel it apart I can see visible black dirt at least 1/2" into the
roll. And I'm sure there's more further up that I can't see.

from very coarse fiber stock - poor permeability vs. flow AND contains
lots of small chopped fibers that they themselves are free to migrate
out of the paper matrix (particles themselves).

That a toilet paper filter works (at all) depends on LOW differential
pressure (or the cellulose compresses into a 'sludge') but does take

Of course. But you can have a low differential pressure when you're
talking about an element that's several inches to a foot thick.

into account statistical particle reduction of multiple pass filtration
of recirculation mode. Its pretty false economy to have overpriced,
poorly performing/designed housings and then put in a poorly performing
'toilet paper' 'filter' that has NO certifiable retention rating, is
made from paper that is variable in density, is made from paper that is

The fact that it does not have a certifiable retention rating, etc.,
doesn't necessarily mean that all of the tests wouldn't represent good
filtration. It only means that test results would not be repeatable.

specifically MADE TO DIGEST and FALL APART in the presence of
water/liquids. Fibers for toilet paper and paper towel rolls are NOT

Water, yes. Oil, no.

arranged into a graded pore density (the retention of the upsteam
surface is larger than the downstream or exit portion of the depth of
media) such as a typical
TRUE depth filter': which means grade pore density....pores/cpature

Again, just because it doesn't have a graded pore density doesn't mean
it doesn't work. It only means it would work better if it had a graded
pore density.

sites get smaller as one goes deeper into the matrix. For a fixed pre
density (such a roll of toilet paper) what is not captured on the
surface can migrate all-the-way-through the 'filter. Your implication

Of course it can. But so can it with a pleated edge filter. Again,
with the paper rolls, the amount of dirt trapped vs. depth into the
filter exhibits an exponential decline. If it had a graded pore
density, the decline would be more linear. I agree that's a better
situation. But again, that doesn't mean the paper rolls are not a good,
cost effective solution to fuel polishing.

of successive potential sucessive capture sites is only for VERY LARGE
particles as with smaller and smaller size particles the removal
mechanism of inertial impaction capture decrease logrithmically. A
roll of toilet paper will wrinkle-up into a 'little knot' when high
differential pressures are applied while UNLOADING most of the debris
that it originally captured. This 'technology' came out the

Which is why you monitor the filter with vacuum gauges and change it
when the differential reaches more than an couple of pounds.

The pleated resinated paper filter has VASTLY less resistance to flow,
has a defined retention rating, will allow the pump to deliver more
volumetric flow rate and at less amperage draw, requires smaller
housing (on an equal flow basis) @ first /installation cost, has
documented retention, flux. .... because of these advantages will
reduce the resident particles in a tank to nearly undetectable limits
****exponentially faster**** than a filter that inherently DOES NOT
FLOW and has poor retention ability, .... I guess an advantage is that
the amperage draw of such a toilet paper system can help heat the
interior of a boat in winter!

Again, you're showing your inexperience with these fuel polishing
systems. The walbro pump used with these systems doesn't draw more or
heat up if it's flow is constricted. It uses magnetic sensing of the
piston travel to activate the pump. So when the fuel flow rate slows
down, so does the pumping without drawing any more power. In fact, the
way it operates, it actually draws less power as the flow rate slows
down. Yet another way (besides the vacuum gauges) to tell if your
filters are getting clogged is to listen to the pump. You can hear the
"ticking" get slower as the flow rate diminishes.

Please answer the following:
What is the collapse pressure of a toilet paper roll?
What is the particle retention rating on either an absolute basis or
'nominal' rating? How about a beta value? or do you just depends on
'dumb luck'.
What is the loss of efficiency due to the 'knife edge seals? What is
the percent of bypass at 30uM at the knife edge? 20uM, 10uM, 2uM
What is the wet strength rating?
What is the recommended flow rate of a toilet paper roll? How do you
'size' a toilet paper filter to operate at the low motive pressure of a
fuel system? Is it ....."Just BUY one and see if it works" ....
hardly!
Tell me which toilet paper mill makes a 'technical grade' of paper?
Tell again that a rolled paper filter is more efficient than a
'cartridge'. ... include the PRICE of the housing in your
evaluation/reply.
Whats the 'dirt capacity' of a to9ilet paper roll? A 2.5" dia X 10"
pleated typically has about 150 grams capacity..... an equivalent
cartridge true depth filter (in cartridge format) will have about 20-25
grams capacity.

I can't answer any of the below questions for my Racor either. But that
doesn't mean I don't think it works.

Now I have some questions for you. Please answer the following:
Why do you think my 2 micron Racor is not pluged up after installing the
TP filters and running for about 40 hours off of the same fuel that,
before installing the TP filters, completely clogged 2 Racor elements in
a row after 20 minutes each?

Why, when changing the TP filters, do they come out hard and solid with
no noticable disintegration, black on the bottom up to about 1/2" deep
but nice and red at the top?

While there are some black streaks on the side of the element that go up
further then 1/2" (some are maybe 2 or 3 inches long) indicating some
fluid going up the side between the canister and the roll, why have none
of the black streakes ever reached the top of the roll, indicating that
the fuel is still being filtered even as it passes up along the
cartridge side? (I do compress the roll in fairly tightly when
installing it and they are still slightly compressed against the side
when I pull them out.)

All I can suggest to you is "Just BUY one and see if it works" ....

I think you'll find that if you have a dirty fuel problem, this will be
one of the most cost effective solutions to fix it. Of course, if you
don't already have a fuel problem that's bad enough to be clogging up
Racors in only 20 minutes, you won't notice a benefit over just the
Racor.

Steve

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:07:05 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

All this discussion about filtration is actually misleading. If you
periodically inspect and or clean the tank occasionally, you will have
minimal problems.

Buy only 'fresh' fuel. Clean your tank every now and then. Use a
recirc. filtration system. Dont worry, be happy.

Boy, wouldn't that be great. Unfortunately I have a tank that doesn't
have an access port and probably hasn't been cleaned since it was
installed 24 years ago. Sure, I could cut holes in the tank and clean
it out ... who knows what I'll find in there. Or I could replace the
tank with one that's already set up to clean out. But both of those
solutions are much more expensive then what I did, which also solved my
dirty fuel problem.

Disclaimer: Don't do what I did. Don't take my word for it. Just
because it worked for me doesn't mean it will work for you.

There, how's that?

Steve

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:07:05 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

All this discussion about filtration is actually misleading. If you
periodically inspect and or clean the tank occasionally, you will have
minimal problems.

Buy only 'fresh' fuel. Clean your tank every now and then. Use a
recirc. filtration system. Dont worry, be happy.

Boy, wouldn't that be great. Unfortunately I have a tank that doesn't
have an access port and probably hasn't been cleaned since it was
installed 24 years ago. Sure, I could cut holes in the tank and clean
it out ... who knows what I'll find in there. Or I could replace the
tank with one that's already set up to clean out. But both of those
solutions are much more expensive then what I did, which also solved my
dirty fuel problem.

Disclaimer: Don't do what I did. Don't take my word for it. Just
because it worked for me doesn't mean it will work for you.

There, how's that?

Steve

I used a general purpose replacement truck fuel pump, that pumps at
around 60GPH according to the label, but probably really at around 30gph.
It is a free-flow pump, in that the engine can draw fuel through it while
it is sitting idle. The pump draws fuel through either a single Racor
10Micron filter, or the Racor and a Fram 1 Micron, and it can be setup to
return the fuel to the thank via the fuel return line, or to the engine,
priming it. This pump is available from Car Parts Stores for around $65.

Larry DeMers
s/v DeLaMer
Cape Dory 30 Lake Superior

Steven Dubnoff wrote:

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:49:20 -0500, "Doug Dotson"
wrote:
I was looking at a Groco or Jabsco pump which seems
good for transfer purposes, but way exceeds the flowrate of the
filter when polishing... What happens when a 5.5 GPM pump
(Jabsco) is pushing fuel through a filter rated at 60 GPH (RACOR 500)?

It won't pump at its rated flow. The simplest thing to do is to put
in the three valves that are necessary to bypass the pump. You can
then bypass the pump for transfer purposes and put it back when you
are running your engine.

While you are at it, it would be good to put in an extra Racor and the
necessary plumbing to switch between two while you are underway.

Steve

----------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Dubnoff
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