Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Rich,

What would you suggest in a stiuation where mechanical cleaning of
the tanks is not practical. In my case, the tanks are an integral part
of the hull. Inspection ports have been cut into the sides, but cannot
be opened without removing a couple of dozen bolts and slicing
through whatever they are bedded in. Then rebedding and bolting
them back in place. 3 ports in each tank probably corresponding to
baffled areas.

I don't think the tanks are in that bad of shape in terms of sediment.
In 4 years since we bought the boat we have bashed around the
Chesapeake, down the ICW, offshore for most of FL without
a problem. We started having problems after taking on fuel in
Palm Beach , then Man-O-War Cay, then Fernandina beach
on the way back north last spring. Its been problematic ever since.

Doug

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Rich,

What would you suggest in a stiuation where mechanical cleaning of
the tanks is not practical. In my case, the tanks are an integral part
of the hull. Inspection ports have been cut into the sides, but cannot
be opened without removing a couple of dozen bolts and slicing
through whatever they are bedded in. Then rebedding and bolting
them back in place. 3 ports in each tank probably corresponding to
baffled areas.

I don't think the tanks are in that bad of shape in terms of sediment.
In 4 years since we bought the boat we have bashed around the
Chesapeake, down the ICW, offshore for most of FL without
a problem. We started having problems after taking on fuel in
Palm Beach , then Man-O-War Cay, then Fernandina beach
on the way back north last spring. Its been problematic ever since.

Doug

"Rich Hampel" wrote in message
...
Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant
know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation
most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that
each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or
state-of-the-art results.

ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a
recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of
degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter
is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of
water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do.
If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers
blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an
emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or
allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the
main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry
will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have
a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or
its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically
fail ....

My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates
fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost
due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention,
knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY
prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will '
deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and
differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then
unload and bypass.

As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such
devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound
cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world
started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc.
If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such
system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a
cost cutting measure!!!!!

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.


;-)

In article , Steven Shelikoff
wrote:

Rich,

I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even
though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using
the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't
think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion
(absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so
long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter
when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each
before installing the TP prefilter.

Steve

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me.
That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-)

By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your tank.

Capt. Bill

Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson"

From: "Doug Dotson"

It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults
start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so
won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you.

That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied
that I
had been drinking while responding to you.

I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit
that it was intended, that being a joke.

It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me.
That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-)

By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your tank.

Capt. Bill

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.

I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and
entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But
the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the
problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank
walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the
fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned
if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion.
But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only
burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank.

Steve

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote:

DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they
plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel
system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters
prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your
system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed
to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles
form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other
bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is
contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to
prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank.

I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and
entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But
the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the
problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank
walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the
fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned
if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion.
But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only
burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank.

Steve

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve

I also have an on-engine filter that is a pain to change, but putting a
fine filter prior to the lift pump is what caused it to fail. Another reason
to install a permanent electric pump.

Doug

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote:

Steve,

I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing
I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the
other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move
fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the
depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that
advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the
TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from
your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of
shedding
right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on
a subsequent pass or by the engine filters.

I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not
a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the
engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is
a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it
as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM.

Steve