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#351
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
I also have an on-engine filter that is a pain to change, but putting a
fine filter prior to the lift pump is what caused it to fail. Another reason to install a permanent electric pump. Doug "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:23 -0500, "Doug Dotson" wrote: Steve, I like your system. It seems like a reasonable approach. One thing I would like to be able to do is polish one tank while using the other though. One point that Rich makes is that a recirc system can move fuel much faster due to the the large effective pore size of the depth filter. Placing a 2 uM filter after the TP filter does negate that advantage. I was planning on doing exactly that as well because the TP filter would seem to be susseptable to shedding. It sounds from your experience that is not the case. Perhaps there is a little bit of shedding right at the beginning but anything shed would be quickly removed on a subsequent pass or by the engine filters. I would still put a filter after the TP filter just to be sure. If not a 2uM, then maybe a 10uM or 15uM. On my system, there's still the engine mounted final filter after the TP and the Racor. But that one is a bit more of a pain to change so I really want to keep the fuel to it as clean as possible. That's why I use the 2uM. Steve |
#352
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
And that is the rub. I have 2 96 gallon tanks on a sailboat.
I can't use fuel fast enough to keep the tanks out of trouble so a polishing system seems to be the most practical. Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote: DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank. I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion. But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank. Steve |
#353
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
And that is the rub. I have 2 96 gallon tanks on a sailboat.
I can't use fuel fast enough to keep the tanks out of trouble so a polishing system seems to be the most practical. Doug s/v Callista "Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message ... On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel wrote: DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank. I considered it. And I realize that mechanically cleaning the tank and entire fuel system on a regular basis would be the best solution. But the polishing system I installed was much cheaper and solved the problem. Even though it may be a band aid in your view in that the tank walls are still dirty, that doesn't matter much to me as long as the fuel going to the engine is clean. I'd probably be much more concerned if I had a motorboat and depended entirely on the engine for motion. But I have a sailboat and don't use the engine all that much. I only burn maybe 30 gallons a year, and it's a 78 gallon tank. Steve |
#354
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Sorry for the misunderstanding. More comments below.
Doug s/v Callista "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Doug Dotson" From: "Doug Dotson" It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you. That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied that I had been drinking while responding to you. I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit that it was intended, that being a joke. It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me. That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-) By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your tank. Be afraid! Be very afraid! As a winter project (since I have to spend this winter up here in the great white Mid Atlantic) I will be removing the existing fuel system, jury rig something to transfer the existing fuel from the port to the starboard tank and open one of the inspection ports. I have to do that to install the new pickup tube/return unit anyway. Should be interesting peering inside there. Have any idea what might have been used to bed the inspection ports? They are about halfway up the side of the tanks so are "under-diesel" much of the time. Capt. Bill |
#355
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Sorry for the misunderstanding. More comments below.
Doug s/v Callista "LaBomba182" wrote in message ... Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump From: "Doug Dotson" From: "Doug Dotson" It never fails in a thread that lasts this long that the personal insults start appearing. You haven't offered all that much useful anyway so won't miss the lack of any further contributions from you. That's an interesting take, considering you're the one who first implied that I had been drinking while responding to you. I would say that you failed to take my comment in the spirit that it was intended, that being a joke. It must have been the lack of a :-) that threw me. That or you're full of more than just "fuel polishing" ideas. :-) By the way don't forget to let us know what you find when you open your tank. Be afraid! Be very afraid! As a winter project (since I have to spend this winter up here in the great white Mid Atlantic) I will be removing the existing fuel system, jury rig something to transfer the existing fuel from the port to the starboard tank and open one of the inspection ports. I have to do that to install the new pickup tube/return unit anyway. Should be interesting peering inside there. Have any idea what might have been used to bed the inspection ports? They are about halfway up the side of the tanks so are "under-diesel" much of the time. Capt. Bill |
#356
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Rich,
I'm looking through the McMaster-Carr catalog and am finding a bewildering number of filter cartridges. None of them mention the term "depth media" or such. Many come in regular and pleated versions. I did find a nice SS housing with a T handle. It seems that a string-wound polyester with 304 SS core is OK. I also see a Spun Polypropylene media for $2.69 ea but the pleated version costs a whopping $30. Doug s/v Callista "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or state-of-the-art results. ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do. If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically fail .... My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention, knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will ' deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then unload and bypass. As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc. If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a cost cutting measure!!!!! DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank. ;-) In article , Steven Shelikoff wrote: Rich, I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion (absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each before installing the TP prefilter. Steve |
#357
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Rich,
I'm looking through the McMaster-Carr catalog and am finding a bewildering number of filter cartridges. None of them mention the term "depth media" or such. Many come in regular and pleated versions. I did find a nice SS housing with a T handle. It seems that a string-wound polyester with 304 SS core is OK. I also see a Spun Polypropylene media for $2.69 ea but the pleated version costs a whopping $30. Doug s/v Callista "Rich Hampel" wrote in message ... Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant know-it-all after being in on and aroud critical filtration/separation most of mworking life ... and yet give just enough information that each can take and arrive a result that is based on current or state-of-the-art results. ANY filter media (including compressed pubic hair) thats used in a recirculation polishing system will work ... its all a matter of degree. Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do. If doesnt matter if rust, bacteria or broken up toilet paper fibers blocks the final filter to your engine... expecially during an emergency. Unbonded cellulose is notorious for unloading particles or allowing the particles to migrate through the filter .... OK if the main system is not drawing fuel thats OK as the recirculating slurry will probably be recaptured; but, if all hell breaks loose and you have a high fuel demand at the time when the TP decides to unload itself or its already trapped debris .... the whole system can catastrophically fail .... My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates fibers, unloads at increasing differential pressure, larger first cost due to need for larger diameter housing, no constancy of retention, knife edge seals of 'cartridge' - very limited in retention and VERY prone to bypass. Short life due to low surface area. TP will ' deform' - wrinkle into a smaller mass when heavily laden and differential pressure is high (remember those knife edge seals) then unload and bypass. As far as experience ..... the high tech/high purity industry used such devices for many years: loose fiberglass, Kotex pads, string wound cylinders, TP, chopped cellulose ....... until after WWII the world started using captured German technology: membranes, cartridges, etc. If TP were any good, industry would still be using it. The last such system I personally replaced/upgraded was in the mid 70s. ..... as a cost cutting measure!!!!! DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. If they plug it means that you are contaminated and need to clean your fuel system. Such plugging clearly indicates a **symptom**, the filters prevented the symptom from becoming an extremis situation. If your system is plugging filters, they did do their job as they are supposed to .... but now go back in and clean the system! Resident particles form and agglomerate into more particles. Bacterial scums feed other bacteria, etc. Your symptoms of plugging filters means your system is contaminated.... a filtration system is a band-aid or a 'condom' to prevent stoppage. Consider to thoroughly mechanically CLEAN the tank. ;-) In article , Steven Shelikoff wrote: Rich, I appreciate that you seem to be an expert on filtering theory even though you also seem to lack the practical experience of actually using the TP or PT depth filters we're talking about. I realize you don't think they work. Even so, I'd love to hear your expert opinion (absolutely no sarcasm intened) on why my Racor 2uM filter has lasted so long (2 years now and still not clogged) after installing a TP prefilter when I completely clogged two of the same filters in 20 minutes each before installing the TP prefilter. Steve |
#358
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote: Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant know-it-all after being in on and around critical filtration/separation most of my working life ... Sounds good to me... /// Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do. Perhaps a test at home would be helpful. Take a kitchen collender, A seive or funnel would also work well. Place a sheet of kitchen roll in the aperture, pleated once to fit. Spray the surface with Pam, olive oil, or soybean oil or any other oil Momma has on hand. Make sure the paper is saturated. Now pour water onto the surface. Let me know how many particles break loose. We'll compare notes if you like... /// My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates fibers \//// You either believe the folks who say that depth filters have saved their fine surface filters from blocking, or you don't. If you do believe that they are reporting honestly, then I imagine you would say that at the operational level, that's the kind of efficiency they prefer? The home test may (or may not) demonstrate that an oil-soaked paper tissue does not migrate particles or fibers. I expect you will let us know if this is misconceived... DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. //// Or in the version I prefer, referring only to the surface filters that you use and prefer: DO NOT depend on fine surface filters to remove crud in your system - they will certainly block: fast. Respectfully, Brian Whatcott |
#359
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 20:02:22 GMT, Rich Hampel
wrote: Please appreciate that I dont want to appear to be an arrogant know-it-all after being in on and around critical filtration/separation most of my working life ... Sounds good to me... /// Whats wrong with TP, etc. is that the material used to filter is not bonded, can digest (make more particles) in the presence of water --- thus to do the exact opposite of what you are trying to do. Perhaps a test at home would be helpful. Take a kitchen collender, A seive or funnel would also work well. Place a sheet of kitchen roll in the aperture, pleated once to fit. Spray the surface with Pam, olive oil, or soybean oil or any other oil Momma has on hand. Make sure the paper is saturated. Now pour water onto the surface. Let me know how many particles break loose. We'll compare notes if you like... /// My objection to TP - very poor efficiency, migrates particles, migrates fibers \//// You either believe the folks who say that depth filters have saved their fine surface filters from blocking, or you don't. If you do believe that they are reporting honestly, then I imagine you would say that at the operational level, that's the kind of efficiency they prefer? The home test may (or may not) demonstrate that an oil-soaked paper tissue does not migrate particles or fibers. I expect you will let us know if this is misconceived... DO NOT depend on filters to remove the crud in your system. //// Or in the version I prefer, referring only to the surface filters that you use and prefer: DO NOT depend on fine surface filters to remove crud in your system - they will certainly block: fast. Respectfully, Brian Whatcott |
#360
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Fuel transfer/polishing pump
Subject: Fuel transfer/polishing pump
From: "Doug Dotson" Have any idea what might have been used to bed the inspection ports? The ones I have dealt with have had gaskets on them. If yours don't I would look into making some and/or using a fuel resistant sealant. http://www.watkins-associates.com/index.html Capt. Bill |
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