On 9 Mar 2006 11:51:01 -0600, Dave wrote:

One way it's
sometimes dealt with is to provide something like if the estimated cost of
repairs is less that, say $1,000, the seller may at his option either make
the repair at his own cost and require the buyer to complete the contract,
or cancel the contract.

I always write my purchase contract to have an acceptance period after
the survey is complete, typically 7 to 10 days. During that time you
can accept the boat as is, attempt to renegotiate the price, or reject
with full refund. That is a much more flexible arrangement than
trying to spell out exact terms and conditions. If the seller refuses
to renegotiate and/or fix to my satisfaction, I fire off the rejection
letter. That has always gotten things moving again.

Roger that, Roger ... but this is actually a hypothetical story... in
anticipation of the real deal..

As I have been mucking about boats, especially the old ones which I love,
the deck keeps getting more and more attention.

Most items on a boat are dealable. But, the deck? For the fun of it I
called a boatyard and asked "what is the going rate for a deck refinish
job"? The guy said they just finished one and it cost $30,000! I'm not
kidding!

I almost fell over, well I was on the phone so more like dropped the phone.

When I was younger and dump as a stump, I bought a full keel boat. Took a
look, bought it, and went sailing.

Never had much in the way of problems... the AT4 did die. Now, I read
Casey's book, and worry.

Too many stories about people who buy low and then find out later why the
boat was "low".


----
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
Hypothetical? Give us a break. Few of us were born yesterday.

Screw the deck core problems and go look at this 1981 Endeavor 32
Listing ID 38308-1494712

St. Augustine Yacht Sales

Phone 904-829-1589



I don't know squat about this boat or this broker or this boat but, if my
boat yard called up and said my boat burned up last night, I'd be on the
plane tomorrow with the insurance check in my hand to look at this one.
That's the judgement of a lifetime with boats and a year of sailing and
refitting ours.

These boats are all solid glass with a minimum of construction features
that can lead to repairs requiring major disassembly. They have very
sensibly designed interiors that stay light, airy, and well ventilated.
There is lots of wood. Much of the construction detailing give the
impression that they were built by hobbits (close neat fits but almost
nothing is straight) but it gives them a certain charm often lacking in
glass boats.

Shoal draft, a good turn of speed in cruising terms, wonderful handling
characteristics, great cockpit, comfortable and reassuring motion. You
can find a boat that does almost anything better but few that sum it all
together as well. They are almost always priced below comparable boats.

Our boat was listed at the same price as this one and we got it for 15 K.


--

Roger Long




"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
news:zCKPf.19059$6h1.6393@trndny09...
Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about
here...

Hypothetical story;

Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come
to terms on price, subject to survey.

The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten
and the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose.

The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can
factor in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get
the repair done and the deal done.

One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill
the deal. What does the Buyer do now?

The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy
the boat. Does the Buyer approach the Seller and say "find a repair guy
or the deals's off" ? I suppose that would be the case.

I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that
complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area?

===
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:59:41 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"

said:

Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase
because
the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ...

Skip the "Duh" crap, Thomas. It betrays your own limitations, not mine.

That was precisely my point. However, depending on what part of the
country
you live in you may find a lot of potential buyers who feel they have to
try
and haggle the last dime on the price. That kind of buyer tries to take
quite literally Wayne's "issues that you did not know about at the time
of
your offer." The back of my hand to such a buyer.

On 9 Mar 2006 14:05:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

I guess some folks want to buy boats and others want to show what big dicks
they have.

Uncalled for in my opinion. The process is all about buying the right
boat at the right price. Virtually all sellers have an inflated view
of what their boat is worth, and virtually all boats have undisclosed
problems. It is your job as a buyer to bring some reality back into
the picture.

Unless of course, you enjoy over paying. Perhaps some people do.

You were giving out bad advice in my opinion and I consider it my job
to set the record straight. You sound like a dealer or broker to me.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:45:57 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote:

Too many stories about people who buy low and then find out later why the
boat was "low".

That's why picking the right surveyor and learning to read between the
lines of his report is such an important part of the process. A good
surveyor will always save you money, sometimes a lot of it.

In the world of older sail boats, there are a lot of negative value
hulls out there. These are the boats that will cost more to fix up
and make seaworthy than they will ever be worth again.

Wayne,, I think Dave is even worse than a boat broker ... a LAWYER!

Like we don't have enough LAWYERS?

-----------------------




"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On 9 Mar 2006 14:05:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

I guess some folks want to buy boats and others want to show what big
dicks
they have.

Uncalled for in my opinion. The process is all about buying the right
boat at the right price. Virtually all sellers have an inflated view
of what their boat is worth, and virtually all boats have undisclosed
problems. It is your job as a buyer to bring some reality back into
the picture.

Unless of course, you enjoy over paying. Perhaps some people do.

You were giving out bad advice in my opinion and I consider it my job
to set the record straight. You sound like a dealer or broker to me.

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 16:04:45 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
wrote:

Wayne,, I think Dave is even worse than a boat broker ... a LAWYER!

Like we don't have enough LAWYERS?

Careful now, my oldest son is about to become one. I'll try not to
hold it against him. :-)

I made the comment about Dave because he seemed to be spouting the
party line from the seller side, and some people actually believe that
sort of thing. Truth is, everything is negotiable and no one should
ever give a deposit or sign a purchase agreement without putting the
maximum amount of buyer protection into it.

We had the same issue when buying a house here in Florida three years
ago. The FL realtors all have a standard purchase agreement form that
they want you to sign. When I read it, there was little or no
protection for the buyer if the inspection report turned up a serious
problem. I insisted on the same sort of verbiage that is in my boat
purchase agreements, where I reserved the right to reject the house
for 7 days after the inspection. They eventually agreed to my wording
and it saved me the cost of a new roof.

On 10 Mar 2006 10:27:09 -0600, Dave wrote:

Nope. Just somebody who thinks buying or selling a boat should be a matter
of spelling out what each party expects in advance

The problem is that it is just about impossible to anticipate every
single issue that may pop up in the survey, or the reaction of the
seller. That's why I consider it vitally important to have an escape
clause, and it doesn't really matter if we are talking boats, houses,
cars or something else.

Nope. Just somebody who thinks buying or selling a boat should be a matter
of spelling out what each party expects in advance


Wayne.B wrote:
The problem is that it is just about impossible to anticipate every
single issue that may pop up in the survey, or the reaction of the
seller. That's why I consider it vitally important to have an escape
clause, and it doesn't really matter if we are talking boats, houses,
cars or something else.


The issue here is that the buyer does not expect to be
forced to complete the sale of a boat with a serious
problem, hitherto unkown, turned on the survey; it is in the
seller's interest (and the brokers) to at least have some
legal phrases in the contract to browbeat him with.

That's why I agree with Wayne and also wrote my own sales
contract.

Most "standard contracts" have words to the effect of
"approval subject to survey" which is not very specific, it
certainly does not specifically spell out that the buyer can
reject the boat AND get his deposit back, in the event of
discovered problems that he doesn't like & the seller will
not dicker over.

You also hear people talk about a boat 'passing' the survey,
there is not a grade issued so a boat can neither pass nor
fail. It should also be noted the dollar value assigned has
more meaning to the insurance company than to the buyer.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

Of course it is. I mentioned it solely to demonstrate that your proposed
test of safety and insurability is a silly and useless test.


Not hardly, some boats are very difficult to insure... and
would you rely on the broker to tell you that?


Wayne.B wrote:
That was not my proposal, someone else. My personal criteria is one
or more conditions unknown before the survey that will collectively
cost more than a thousand or so to repair. Below that price I expect
the seller to make the repair at his expense. Over that, I wan't a
price adjustment so that I can make the repair myself and insure that
it is done correctly. It has been my experience that almost all boats
older than 5 to 10 years will have some non trivial issue turn up in
the survey.

Agreed.
The scary part is that the surveyor *will* miss something.
You just hope he doesn't miss a biggy.

.... I have no qualms about asking the seller to adjust the
price because it has also been my experience that the survey will miss
a few things that are non trivial to fix. I've never had this happen,
but if the survey turned up a major structural or mechanical issue, I
would walk away from the deal and thank the surveyor.


Agreed again, and I *have* had this happen. My wife & I were
very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have
been sunk. There were a number of things I didn't like about
the boat, but the pickings were slim so we were going ahead.
The surveyor poked his head into a couple of nooks &
crannies & had not, and said "Hey did you see this mud
line?" Then we hunted thru the boat together and found some
major cracked structural members.

Another important thing: *be there* when your surveyor does
his inspection. You will learn a lot.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:25:08 -0500, DSK wrote:

My wife & I were
very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have
been sunk.

And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you...

My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that
doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't
have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and
broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may
collect nothing.