Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase because
the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ...

But,,, when the surveyor says "you know, it looks like your gonna need a
whole bunch of deck work don't on this boat, the deck core is full of
moisture" ..

Then,,, walk? No run.

Or, sit down and discuss. Let's face it,, the buyer wants to buy and the
seller wants to sell.....

--------------
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 23:00:12 -0500, Wayne.B
said:

I disagree. If the survey and/or sea trial turns up issues that you
did not know about at the time of your offer, you are perfectly
entitled to renogotiate. Some sellers will stone wall on that. If
so, excercise your purchase contract option to reject the vessel and
notify both the seller and broker via fax and letter. You did include
that clause in your agreement, right?

The survey will virtually always turn up some issue you didn't know about
when you made your offer.

If I'm the seller, and it's a bunch of minor items that are within the
range
of what you'd expect, I'm gonna tell the buyer I have no problem with his
walking, but the agreed price isn't gonna change. Most buyers at that
point
want the boat more than they want to beat their chests about how they
hondled down the price.

If it's something significant, it's a different story. When we bought our
last boat, no water came out the exhaust when we did initial sea trials.
Had
to have an exhaust elbow replaced. This was something significant enough
that if the price hadn't been adjusted to cover it I'd have walked.

On 8 Mar 2006 12:41:02 -0600, Dave wrote:

That sounds good at first blush. But I don't think so. Example: the surveyor
points out that a fitting on the boat's gasoline engine is leaking. The
required repair is to get out a wrench and tighten the fitting. Insurer
prolly won't insure with that problem uncorrected. Not safe to use it with
that problem uncorrected. But if I'm the seller, and the buyer asks for an
adjustment I say "You want out of the contract, here's your deposit. I'll
tighten the fitting and sell the boat to somebody else."

That's a minor repair by anyones definition and typically would be
fixed by the seller at his expense.

It is very rare however for a boat of any significant age to come
through a survey without some previously undiscovered items showing
up, and as we all know, almost everything costs more to repair than we
would like. The broker has an issue at this point as well as the
seller. If the broker has seen the survey items of things that need
repair, he is in a difficult ethical dilemna with subsequent deals if
the first purchaser walks away.

How many boats have you sold recently with that kind of attitude?
It's a buyers market out there and most sellers are thrilled just to
have a live buyer in hand, and will do just about anything to make
sure the deal goes down.

Oh come on! Apply some of that not at all common common sense.

Cost to tighten fitting? - $0.00 Adjustment to sale prince? - $0.00
Buying the boat you want? - Priceless.

I'm talking about where the surveyor discovers something like a
pinhole leak in the gas tank fiberglassed into the bilge. No way
you'll get insurance after that has been identified without committing
a bit of fraud. If the owner had discovered it and wanted to keep the
boat, he would be out the cost of fixing it. Now that you and he have
agreed on a price and both of you assume that the tank was sound, he's
out the same amount but you're the one who has to deal with getting it
fixed.

--

Roger Long



"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 18:17:59 GMT, "Roger Long"
said:

A good test for whether something turned up on the survey should
effect the price is whether the boat can be insured and used safely
after the sale.

That sounds good at first blush. But I don't think so. Example: the
surveyor
points out that a fitting on the boat's gasoline engine is leaking.
The
required repair is to get out a wrench and tighten the fitting.
Insurer
prolly won't insure with that problem uncorrected. Not safe to use
it with
that problem uncorrected. But if I'm the seller, and the buyer asks
for an
adjustment I say "You want out of the contract, here's your deposit.
I'll
tighten the fitting and sell the boat to somebody else."

"Dave" wrote

Of course it is. I mentioned it solely to demonstrate that your
proposed
test of safety and insurability is a silly and useless test.

No, you sized on my failure to burden all the other readers of this
newsgroup with all the words to point out the obvious fact that this
is a principle that can be used to guide the judgement and common
sense of reasonable people and not an ironclad idea that they need to
be enslaved to. The key words are "silly and useless" which so many
people are just so itching to use that they make these newsgroups a
lot less useful and enjoyable to read than if everyone would exercise
a little common sense and judgement.

--

Roger Long

Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about here...

Hypothetical story;

Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come to
terms on price, subject to survey.

The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten and
the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose.

The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can factor
in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get the repair
done and the deal done.

One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill the
deal. What does the Buyer do now?

The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy the
boat. Does the Buyer approach the Seller and say "find a repair guy or the
deals's off" ? I suppose that would be the case.

I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that
complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area?

===
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:59:41 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"
said:

Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase because
the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ...

Skip the "Duh" crap, Thomas. It betrays your own limitations, not mine.

That was precisely my point. However, depending on what part of the
country
you live in you may find a lot of potential buyers who feel they have to
try
and haggle the last dime on the price. That kind of buyer tries to take
quite literally Wayne's "issues that you did not know about at the time of
your offer." The back of my hand to such a buyer.

On 8 Mar 2006 14:30:01 -0600, Dave wrote:

Of course it is. I mentioned it solely to demonstrate that your proposed
test of safety and insurability is a silly and useless test.

That was not my proposal, someone else. My personal criteria is one
or more conditions unknown before the survey that will collectively
cost more than a thousand or so to repair. Below that price I expect
the seller to make the repair at his expense. Over that, I wan't a
price adjustment so that I can make the repair myself and insure that
it is done correctly. It has been my experience that almost all boats
older than 5 to 10 years will have some non trivial issue turn up in
the survey. I have no qualms about asking the seller to adjust the
price because it has also been my experience that the survey will miss
a few things that are non trivial to fix. I've never had this happen,
but if the survey turned up a major structural or mechanical issue, I
would walk away from the deal and thank the surveyor.

Hypothetical? Give us a break. Few of us were born yesterday.

Screw the deck core problems and go look at this 1981 Endeavor 32
Listing ID 38308-1494712

St. Augustine Yacht Sales

Phone 904-829-1589



I don't know squat about this boat or this broker or this boat but, if
my boat yard called up and said my boat burned up last night, I'd be
on the plane tomorrow with the insurance check in my hand to look at
this one. That's the judgement of a lifetime with boats and a year of
sailing and refitting ours.

These boats are all solid glass with a minimum of construction
features that can lead to repairs requiring major disassembly. They
have very sensibly designed interiors that stay light, airy, and well
ventilated. There is lots of wood. Much of the construction
detailing give the impression that they were built by hobbits (close
neat fits but almost nothing is straight) but it gives them a certain
charm often lacking in glass boats.

Shoal draft, a good turn of speed in cruising terms, wonderful
handling characteristics, great cockpit, comfortable and reassuring
motion. You can find a boat that does almost anything better but few
that sum it all together as well. They are almost always priced below
comparable boats.

Our boat was listed at the same price as this one and we got it for 15
K.


--

Roger Long




"Thomas Wentworth" wrote in message
news:zCKPf.19059$6h1.6393@trndny09...
Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about
here...

Hypothetical story;

Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller
come to terms on price, subject to survey.

The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is
rotten and the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose.

The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can
factor in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to
get the repair done and the deal done.

One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will
kill the deal. What does the Buyer do now?

The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to
buy the boat. Does the Buyer approach the Seller and say "find a
repair guy or the deals's off" ? I suppose that would be the case.

I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that
complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the
area?

===
"Dave" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 16:59:41 GMT, "Thomas Wentworth"

said:

Duh? I don't see the average boat owner walking out on a purchase
because
the fire extinguisher isn't working just right ...

Skip the "Duh" crap, Thomas. It betrays your own limitations, not
mine.

That was precisely my point. However, depending on what part of the
country
you live in you may find a lot of potential buyers who feel they
have to try
and haggle the last dime on the price. That kind of buyer tries to
take
quite literally Wayne's "issues that you did not know about at the
time of
your offer." The back of my hand to such a buyer.

Thomas Wentworth wrote:

Dave ,,, here is an example of a problem that I haven't read about here...

Hypothetical story;

Buyer finds boat ,, boat is looking pretty good. Buyer and Seller come to
terms on price, subject to survey.


I wonder how your contract is worded. Many 'standard forms'
are worded such that you (the buyer) are liable to pay for
all kinds of things as well as giving up your deposit,
regrdless of the *result* of the survey & sea trial. I don't
know of such contracts being tested in court. But I do know
of a lot of brokers who are very very slow to return
deposits on deals that fall thru because of major
discrepancies in the survey.

When my wife & I were seriously boat shopping a few years
back, I sat down with our lawyer and wrote out my own sales
contract. When we made offers on boats, I gave it to the
broker... a few said "No, we only use our own contract form"
and we walked. Most of them then said, "Wait, come back,
we'll be glad to use your form."


The survey turns up deck problems. Say, some of the deck core is rotten and
the deck will need repair. Then, refinish I suppose.


Refinishing is a minor job if the deck panel is cut out
carefully & put back in place properly.


The Buyer decides to look around for a repair .. so that he/she can factor
in the repair cost and ask the Seller to work with him/her to get the repair
done and the deal done.

One problem.. the boatyards are so expensive that their repair will kill the
deal. What does the Buyer do now?


1- walk away, there are lots of boats out there for sale.
2- get the buyer to drop the price by the amount of the
repair, knowing that the repair will actually cost a minimum
of estimate +10%.
3- buy the boat anyway and regret it.
4- buy the boat anyway, ignore the problem, and have fun.

The Buyer can't go through with the deal even though he/she wants to buy the
boat.

Why does the buyer want to buy a headache? Is the buyer
friggin' nuts?



I guess what I am asking is: What happens if the repair isn't that
complicated but there isn't any affordable repair people in the area?

Either move the boat or fix it yourself. Deck core repairs
aren't hard. I've done it so it must be pretty easy

Tom, less hand-wringing, OK? It's not becoming in a grown
man and potential cruising sailor.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

"DSK" wrote

Tom, less hand-wringing, OK? It's not becoming in a grown man and
potential cruising sailor.

Wow! Look at that. Hit that nail right on the head and drove it
flush with a single swipe

--

Roger Long

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 13:02:47 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

Tom, less hand-wringing, OK? It's not becoming in a grown man and
potential cruising sailor.

Wow! Look at that. Hit that nail right on the head and drove it
flush with a single swipe

Indeed, chuckle.