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  #31   Report Post  
Old March 10th 06, 09:38 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Roger Long
 
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"Wayne.B" wrote

You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing ....


Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have
to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for
insurance.

For cripes sake! Buying a boat is something you as an adult take
responsibility for. Everything that may go wrong isn't someone else's
fault.

The survey report is just a guide to your judgement to be backed up
and utilized with all the other information available. You ultimately
are captain of the process. The surveyor is like an aid to
navigation. It's still your responsibility to see that the boat gets
where it's going without running aground even if the buoy drifted out
of position, the channel was located on the chart from a 1890 datum,
the channel shoaled, the third mate forgot to fill the day tank, the
compass wasn't adjusted properly, etc, etc.

I can't believe that people who profess to be ready to go out and be
masters of vessels are filling this newsgroup with this whining.

(Wayne, I know you probably actually agree with this but I'm just
taking you wording as a soapbox to jump up on.)

--

Roger Long





  #32   Report Post  
Old March 10th 06, 11:44 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Wayne.B
 
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On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:38:21 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote

You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing ....


Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors have
to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose for
insurance.


========================

I didn't say it was a good recourse, and certainly not one to be taken
lightly, but it is just about your only option if somthing truly major
pops up - sort of like the wings falling off your new plane as it
takes off for the first time. :-)

  #33   Report Post  
Old March 11th 06, 12:35 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Roger Long
 
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Default How Long ???

New planes, that's a different matter. When it comes to old planes,
even a few weeks old, there is a principle in aviation regulations
that is far more true of boats than most of us realize.

If the wings fall off the plane, it's the fault of the pilot. The
pilot is captain of the aircraft. Just like the captain of a ship, he
(or she) was supposed to have been aware enough of how the maintenance
was being conducted to be sure that the bolts the hold the wings on
were tightened. If he knows he has a great maintenance crew, he may
responsibly let it go at that. If he knows that the company has hired
a bunch of jerks, he should go look at the bolts himself.

This isn't always fair. If a ship loses it's steering and goes up on
the rocks because someone in the black gang didn't grease the steering
gear, it's the captain's fault. True, the captain can't be expected
to go down and check the greasing of every piece of equipment but he's
supposed to be aware enough of the quality of his crew and exercise
enough oversight of the staff in the chain of command that he can be
sure that stuff is getting done.

RESPONSIBILITY MEANS THAT SOMEONE CAN LET YOU DOWN THROUGH NO FAULT OF
YOUR OWN AND IT'S STILL YOUR FAULT! If you don't like it, get another
hobby. Stamp collecting is nice and relaxing.

A surveyor may really screw you up but evaluating the surveyor and the
quality of his work is part of your job as a boat owner. He works for
you. You are his boss and his supervisor. You are buying a boat.
You are going to be captain of it and that responsibility starts when
you decide to buy it. You may not know enough to fully fulfil these
responsibilities but, welcome to real life, you are NEVER going to
know enough and have enough experience to carry the responsibilities
given you with complete confidence that nothing will happen.

The whole damn society is falling apart because nobody will take
goddamn responsibility for anything anymore.

That's why I flew planes and sail boats. Because, when I accept that
complete responsibility and hold my fate in my hands (along with
anybody foolish enough to tag along) I'm truly alive.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 21:38:21 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

"Wayne.B" wrote

You really don't have a lot of recourse other than suing ....


Sheesh! No wonder people like me have to give up flying, doctors
have
to give up practicing medicine, we're all paying through the nose
for
insurance.


========================

I didn't say it was a good recourse, and certainly not one to be
taken
lightly, but it is just about your only option if somthing truly
major
pops up - sort of like the wings falling off your new plane as it
takes off for the first time. :-)



  #34   Report Post  
Old March 11th 06, 08:05 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
rhys
 
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On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 00:21:51 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

All I can say is that I know of at least one case where it has been
done very successfully in way, way, less time than I've been following
your posts on the subject.


Heh. Fair winds, Roger.

R.

  #35   Report Post  
Old March 13th 06, 12:00 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
DSK
 
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My wife & I were
very serious about buying a trawler that turned out to have
been sunk.



Wayne.B wrote:
And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you...


I don't think he forgot, but I think he didn't know the
whole story... in fact I think 'deliberate ignorance' would
cover his approach, since he is not required to disclose
what he doesn't "know."

Actually the shiftiness of the broker was already setting
off alarm bells.

This boat did sell, two or three years later. I sometimes
wonder who bought it.



My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem that
doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't
have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and
broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you may
collect nothing.


I don't think the surveyor is liable, quite frankly. If
there was something major and that would be extremely
obvious to a competent professional, you might take a swing
at it.

Another thing is, most people are already reluctant to pay a
surveyor for a full day of inspecting. And most people are
more interested in whether the hot water works. So if you
don't write a blank check & say, "take as much time as you
need to thoroughly inspect absolutely every single thing on
the boat," then the surveyor can rightfully say that the
buyer did not cover his bets.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



  #36   Report Post  
Old March 13th 06, 12:34 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Roger Long
 
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The surveyor is also just a more (very important word "more")
knowledgable person. He is not psychic. If he was, he would be
making millions on Wall Street instead of crawling around the bilges
of old boats.

The surveyor is also struggling against the fact that, if he did the
job every buyer wants him to do, he wouldn't get enough work to stay
in business. It's the same kind of bind many professions are in. The
airline pilot isn't supposed to endanger his passengers by flying in
very bad weather but the dispatcher is telling him, "If you don't take
this flight, we'll find someone who will."

Most survey referrals come from brokers and boatyards who like to see
boats move. My brief surveying career came to an end because I
thought the owner should end up with a complete list and plan for the
first couple of years of upgrades and fixes. My goal was the the
buyer have no surprises during the honeymoon period. I'd say, "This
is a great boat, here are the things it needs done." The yardowner
would come out screaming, "You trashed a perfectly good boat. Don't
expect me to recommend you again."

In the sunken boat case, forget about suing the surveyor. Your job as
a boat buyer was to hire someone competent. You screwed up. Picking
the right surveyor is actually harder than picking the right boat.

However, if you find an obvious scum line in the boat, start asking
around, and someone tells you that the surveyor was onboard just after
it was raised and he was recommended by the yard that raised it, it
might be worth pursuing. You've got to have some evidence of
intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just
something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people
pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a
lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys
will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice
insurance.

--

Roger Long



"DSK" wrote in message
...
My wife & I were very serious about buying a trawler that turned
out to have been sunk.



Wayne.B wrote:
And of course the seller just sort of forgot to tell you...


I don't think he forgot, but I think he didn't know the whole
story... in fact I think 'deliberate ignorance' would cover his
approach, since he is not required to disclose what he doesn't
"know."

Actually the shiftiness of the broker was already setting off alarm
bells.

This boat did sell, two or three years later. I sometimes wonder who
bought it.



My biggest concern is that the surveyor will miss a major problem
that
doesn't surface until after the deal has closed. You really don't
have a lot of recourse other than suing the surveyor, seller and
broker but it will take a long time to resolve and in the end you
may
collect nothing.


I don't think the surveyor is liable, quite frankly. If there was
something major and that would be extremely obvious to a competent
professional, you might take a swing at it.

Another thing is, most people are already reluctant to pay a
surveyor for a full day of inspecting. And most people are more
interested in whether the hot water works. So if you don't write a
blank check & say, "take as much time as you need to thoroughly
inspect absolutely every single thing on the boat," then the
surveyor can rightfully say that the buyer did not cover his bets.

Fresh Breezes- Doug King



  #37   Report Post  
Old March 13th 06, 01:19 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Wayne.B
 
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Default How Long ???

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:34:36 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

You've got to have some evidence of
intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just
something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people
pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and a
lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys
will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's malpractice
insurance.


All valid points of course. My statement was made primarily to
highlight the limited amount of recourse available, not to recommend a
specific course of action.

  #38   Report Post  
Old March 13th 06, 01:24 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
Roger Long
 
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Default How Long ???

I wasn't really responding to anyone in particular (especially Doug).
Just trying to stick a finger in the collapsing levees of common sense
and decency that surround our society.

--

Roger Long



"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 12:34:36 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

You've got to have some evidence of
intentional wrongdoing or utter incompetence; not just
something missed. Otherwise, you will just be one of the people
pushing us closer to the day when boating will be like aviation and
a
lot of other things, there either won't be any surveyors or surveys
will cost $5000 for a 30 foot boat to cover the surveyor's
malpractice
insurance.


All valid points of course. My statement was made primarily to
highlight the limited amount of recourse available, not to recommend
a
specific course of action.





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