Fortunately, these days I live in a place where jetskis are banned.
Long may it stay that way. Guess why they got banned? Noisy offensive
buzzing insects driven by morons who broke every rule in the book. I'll
agree that not 100% of the owners fit this description, but more than
enough to **** off people to the point where these things are banned.

That's reality. Deal with it. If you don't want to get classified along
with the morons, perhaps you should reconsider your toys.

PDW

In article .com,
wrote:

Look, you're posting this to a cruising n/g. Jet skis are noisy and
offensive buzzing insects and the people who drive around on them are
the seaborne equivalent of morons who ride trail bikes on public
reserves. Go away and play with your toy and don't expect any sympathy
from sailors.

You obviously haven't been actually reading the thread, or refuse to be
shaken from your outdated smug superior false stereotyping notions of
boaters on pwc's. The point has been made (by boaters and non-pwcers):
"jet skis" are actually NOT noisy anymore! Probably the quietest and
cleanest-running power boats being sold. And neither I, nor any of my
pwc enthusiast friends, many of whom also own and operate larger boats
as well, fit your uninformed description...at all. I am a cruiser too,
P, have in fact done more serious long-distance/multi-day cruising on
pwc's, longer, more ambitious and more of it, than most larger-boat
owners I know (as I described to some extent earlier in the thread I
think). Like you and other boaters and cruisers in bigger boats, I
have to learn how to navigate, how to dock, how to launch and retrieve
my boat, how to obey the rules of the road and respect the laws and all
other fellow boaters, how to avoid going aground, how to prepare for
and deal with emergencies and problem situations on the water, how to
use all nautical tools, how to maintain, repair and safely operate my
craft, take careful care of my passengers...and like you and all fellow
boaters, get angry at the behavior of the too-large percentage of
people who do idiotic dangerous irresponsible things on the water no
matter what the size and shape of their hulls, not only because of the
danger they pose but because of the bad face they put on the entire
boating community.

Yes, okay, I'll gladly accept the term "toy" to describe my pwc in the
same sense that any power boat is in a way a toy (and in a way, not).
But no one's looking for any sympathy, just trying to educate and
inform some obviously ignorant, nasty and prejudiced fellow boaters on
what we're talking about. When you specifically insult me and my
friends in words like yours above, I'm not gonna let it slide or just
go away.

It doesn't matter how many anecdotal experiences you've had observing
pwc'ers doing dumb things, you and I have both seen just as many idiots
in bigger boats doing just as many comically or frighteningly bad
stupid things, at the ramp, on the water, around sailboats and surfers,
in the channel, at the marina, in the no-wake zone, near the shore.

I do respect sailors enormously, I know you really have to know what
you're doing to sail. Probably far fewer idiots in that category
because it's a lot more difficult and takes more effort and dedication
to get into in the first place. By the same token, pwc's probably have
a slightly higher percentage of clueless newbies and kids on them than
larger boats, again because they're easier to afford and to get behind
the wheel of in the first place (much less so in NY and other states
now that you have to take a basic boating safety course in order to
legally operate one at all - all but extinguishing the rental market,
which is where most of the problems come from). But most people
exhibiting the kind of behavior you're thinking about on pwc's are
either newbies or kids who haven't learned and figured out the rules
and the impact of their behavior YET, but they will....if not, they're
just idiots, and again there's no shortage of them, no matter what the
level of age, experience, income, or what size and shape boat a person
has.

richforman

Fortunately, these days I live in a place where jetskis are banned.
Long may it stay that way. Guess why they got banned? Noisy offensive
buzzing insects driven by morons who broke every rule in the book

Okay, fine, but do me a favor, suppose this hypothetically:

What if, in recognition of existing problems, and in an effort to get
into your
town's good graces, and most importantly, to be allowed onto your
beautiful
waterways (where we pay the same taxes to support launch ramps and
other
boating-related services as do other boaters), the pwc-owning community
and
industry (not that powerful a lobbying bloc, there are only four
manufacturers),
took certain steps, for instance....

Suppose they/we actively and successfully supported and promoted
mandatory
education and licensing requirements for pwc operators, and as a
result, pwc-related
accident and injury statistics dropped for multiple years in a row, as
has happened in states where such laws have been enacted over the past
five or six years, including New York, New Jersey and Connecticut; and
also, young or new pwc owners and operators were, increasingly,
demonstrably and enforceably, at least acquainted with the basics of
boating safety, courtesy and regulations before they could legally
operate a vehicle...(unlike with any other kind of boats, I might add
parenthetically)

Now, suppose further, bear with me here, that in addition, for more
than five years, the entire industry had been on a continuous and
highly effective campaign to make their 'skis dramatically quieter,
cleaner-running, vastly more fuel-efficient and with provably
far-reduced pollution and impact on wildlife and the environment (in
the end comparing at the very least favorably in those areas with
pretty much all other new power boats in the market). Let's say the
new 'skis were found to be 75% quieter than those from five years ago,
with (obviously) the ratio of these newer, clean./quiet models to
older/louder/dirtier boats out on the water, inevitably increased year
by year, obviously that trend stretching into the future...

Now, do you think it would be reasonable to ask those in your
community, those who'd voted for the pwc bans in the first place,
especially those with an interest in boating in general, to be informed
and aware of, and to acknowledge, these developments, and in fact to
reevaluate their impressions of pwc's and their riders, with these
changes in mind, after a number of years?

Would you yourself be willing to do that? To update your level of
knowledge in the topic even though it may not seem to affect you
personally (you never plan to buy a pwc), and to take the banned
community's responses and efforts to improve their reputation and the
entire situation, into account....would you ever be willing to
reconsider and revisit the issue in the name of simple fairness, even
regularly, every five years; would you be able to have your notions on
the matter changed over time by new information?

OR, would you stubbornly cling to your original perceptions and notions
about pwc's, refusing to be swayed by or bothered with ongoing changes
such as these, in your attitudes and policies toward the machines and
their riders.....always basing your final evaluation on the older,
original data on the basis of which you first formed your impressions
years ago? Would you in fact, in your mind, even possibly, tend to
unfairly prejudge and stereotype pwc's and the majority of their riders
based on conditions you observed anecdotally before any of these
changes (in statistics; in technology; in law; in a large percentage of
the riders themselves) had come about?

Rhetorical questions obviously. Just take a look at yourself, man, and
your attitude.

Remember we are all in this together when you talk about bans. There
are plenty of people who would love to see all power boats banned from
our waterways entirely....they are the ones who at FIRST seemed to be
succeeding with national park bans enacted back in the late '90s, until
science and reality bore out the fact that pwc's were not intrinsically
different from any other power boats, the results of the parks' own
studies causing these bans to be rolled back in the last couple years,
one after another....do you think the environmental extremists who
initiated these laws would have stopped at pwc's?

I just know I share a love of the water, and a great number of
responsibilities and concerns, with everybody on this newsgroup, and
every other boater and pwc enthusiast out on the water. Here's
another question: out of pwc's versus boaters at large, which group
more often has a beer in the hand of every person you seem to see on a
vessel underway? How about this: which group has a greater percentage
of always having life vests on? There is stupidity, irresposnbility,
and dangerous, illegal behavior perpretrated by boaters of ALL STRIPES
on all sizes and shapes of boats, but it is WRONG and UNFAIR to
prejudicially make statements painting all those boaters with the same
brush based on the behavior of the idiotic ones. It is just wrong.
And "banning" any type of vehicle based on the illegal behavior of
whatever percentage of its users, is even more wrong....you just might
not know it yet if hasn't affected you personaly with your "choice of
toy."

richforman

In article . com,
wrote:
Okay, fine, but do me a favor, suppose this hypothetically:

Sure thing...

What if, in recognition of existing problems, and in an effort to get
into your
town's good graces, and most importantly, to be allowed onto your
...
took certain steps, for instance....

Step one...

Suppose they/we actively and successfully supported and promoted
mandatory
education and licensing requirements for pwc operators, and as a
...
operate a vehicle...(unlike with any other kind of boats, I might add
parenthetically)

Good start.

Now, suppose further, bear with me here, that in addition, for more
than five years, the entire industry had been on a continuous and
highly effective campaign to make their 'skis dramatically quieter,
...
by year, obviously that trend stretching into the future...

Another good start.

Now, do you think it would be reasonable to ask those in your
community, those who'd voted for the pwc bans in the first place,
especially those with an interest in boating in general, to be informed
and aware of, and to acknowledge, these developments, and in fact to
reevaluate their impressions of pwc's and their riders, with these
changes in mind, after a number of years?

No problem.

Would you yourself be willing to do that? To update your level of

Sure thing.

OR, would you stubbornly cling to your original perceptions and notions
...
Rhetorical questions obviously. Just take a look at yourself, man, and
your attitude.

I have no problem doing all of that... as soon as we can completely
get rid of the assholes I was originally talking about... the noisy,
polluting, obnoxious ones that predominate the sport.

Remember we are all in this together when you talk about bans. There
are plenty of people who would love to see all power boats banned from

Actually, am in favor of bans in certain places. In others, I have no
problem with engines. Where I live, all gas/diesels are banned, and
it's great. Other places where I sail, everyone is welcome.

I just know I share a love of the water, and a great number of
responsibilities and concerns, with everybody on this newsgroup, and
every other boater and pwc enthusiast out on the water. Here's

I have no doubt about you. I do have doubts about many pwc
entusiasts. They seem to be there for the machismo. One finds them on
land also, mostly on the freeways, going 95.

another question: out of pwc's versus boaters at large, which group
more often has a beer in the hand of every person you seem to see on a
vessel underway? How about this: which group has a greater percentage

They just drink before they leave the ramp? Who knows? They have to
wear a vest because it's the law. A large percentage of sailors wear
them because it's smart. Some don't, but most do, at least where I
sail. They're not required to by law.

of always having life vests on? There is stupidity, irresposnbility,
and dangerous, illegal behavior perpretrated by boaters of ALL STRIPES
on all sizes and shapes of boats, but it is WRONG and UNFAIR to
prejudicially make statements painting all those boaters with the same
brush based on the behavior of the idiotic ones. It is just wrong.

I agree. However, I don't want noisy, polluting machines buzzing
around me, and there are a large percentage of pwc'ers who fit the
bill on that.

And "banning" any type of vehicle based on the illegal behavior of
whatever percentage of its users, is even more wrong....you just might
not know it yet if hasn't affected you personaly with your "choice of
toy."

They're not banned exclusively on that basis. They're banned for all
the other reasons I mentioned. Being a jerk isn't illegal.

How about this hypothetical... would you be willing to completely ban
those who continue to drive the noisy, polluting machines that
dominate the current situation? I think that would be a reasonable
compromise.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

How about this hypothetical... would you be willing to completely ban
those who continue to drive the noisy, polluting machines that
dominate the current situation? I think that would be a reasonable
compromise.

This is a little ambiguous....as far as the machines themselves, this
is more
of a regulation on the manufacturers than on the owners/riders. I
support environmental
regulations that require improved greenliness and fuel efficiency of
new boats being
manufactured and sold, but of course traditionally this doesn't mean
that the older boats that were manufactured, sold and purchased legally
before such requirements were enacted, suddenly have their access
rights taken away. This way, the trend is towards ever cleaner,
less-polluting, more-fuel-efficient and less-noisy boats out on the
water. No, I don't think it would be fair to retroactively ban boats
that had previously been bought - although, my main thing is always,
don't single out pwc's; if you did the same thing to noisy, polluting,
dirty boats of all shapes and sizes, then I at least couldn't cry
discrimination against pwc's. 'Course, then that would mean the whole
boating community would all be joined together in their outrage,
instead of different segments of us bickering among ourselves here, and
we'd probably have enough strength to prevent such a blatantly unfair
thing from happening. (When the enviro-extremists start with a much
easier target, pwc'ers alone, an easier target because so many people
have long-ago-formed prejudiced stereotyped outdated impressions of us
and our boats, we're a much tinier and less powerful group...although
we have still been winning against them when the scientific evidence
inevitably comes in.)

Now, when you say, "ban those who continue to drive"....I and every
other intelligent, responsible, law-abiding, clear-thinking pwc'er and
boater, think that laws against irresponsible, dangerous behavior on
the water should be strictly enforced, violators punished, and who
knows, possibly after enough trespasses, their boating privileges
revoked just like can happen on land. (Of course, unfairly, it's only
we pwc'ers who now require any kind of license at all to operate our
boats at all, and then only in some states...it's a good idea, but
common sense tells me the same should be required for any boat of any
shape or size.) I'm probably biased because I'm a boater, but I think
society should allocate as a high priority the enforcement of marine
law. So sure, bust and, if they do it enough times, "ban" every boater
who's drunk or drinking on the water, every cigarette boat guy zooming
dangerously among boat traffic at unsafe speeds, and every pwc'er that
violates the rules about how close to other boaters or swimmers or the
shore they can be operating. As it is, a lot of pwc'ers feel
discriminated by marine law enforcers who seem predisposed to enforce
against us disproportionately, harrassing us with frequent spot checks
and seemingly arbirtary pullovers, while a lot of other obviously
dangerous illegal boating stuff is happening all around us....but I'm
sure that's just paranoia....not the result of people's personal
prejudices, irrational dislike and (in some cases, maybe) jealousy of
us with our machines and how much fun we're having.

Anyway...sorry....is that what you meant?

richforman

In article . com,
wrote:
How about this hypothetical... would you be willing to completely ban
those who continue to drive the noisy, polluting machines that
dominate the current situation? I think that would be a reasonable
compromise.

This is a little ambiguous....as far as the machines themselves, this
is more
of a regulation on the manufacturers than on the owners/riders. I

So that's a no? In fact, if an older car is polluting excessively, one
can report it (out here anyway). They get a fix-it notice in the
mail. It's not enforceable, but it puts them on notice that if a cop
sees it, he might get a real fix-it ticket.

don't single out pwc's; if you did the same thing to noisy, polluting,
dirty boats of all shapes and sizes, then I at least couldn't cry
discrimination against pwc's. 'Course, then that would mean the whole

I'm not specifically singling out pwcs, except that they're a huge
cause of the problem. You don't get very many sailboats buzzing
anchorages with noisy engines and endangering lives in the process.

I've already said when someone is running their engine excessively, I
usually say something. That's not easy to do when a pwc zips by.

boating community would all be joined together in their outrage,
instead of different segments of us bickering among ourselves here, and

I don't think you'll find much disagreement in the sailing community
about the annoynance of pwcs.

have long-ago-formed prejudiced stereotyped outdated impressions of us
and our boats, we're a much tinier and less powerful group...although
we have still been winning against them when the scientific evidence
inevitably comes in.)

And, as I've said, it's not outdated. It's nice that the industry has
finally fixed the problem (supposedly) for new vehicles. They haven't
and can't do much for the old ones that still dominate the scene.

Now, when you say, "ban those who continue to drive"....I and every
... sniped to save space


--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

don't single out pwc's; if you did the same thing to noisy, polluting,
dirty boats of all shapes and sizes, then I at least couldn't cry
discrimination against pwc's.

I'm not specifically singling out pwcs, except that they're a huge
cause of the problem. You don't get very many sailboats buzzing
anchorages with noisy engines and endangering lives in the process

We seem to be talking past each other on this point: you keep bringing
up sailboats
and I keep saying I"m talking about pwc's and other power boats. In
fact I've already
conceded that sail boaters probably cause fewer problems and in general
behave better.
I'm making the point that pwc's and their operators are not very
different from any other kind of POWER BOATS.
All right, sail boats have engines so maybe they're power boats, but
you know what I mean. NOT SAIL BOATS!

richforman

In article .com,
wrote:
don't single out pwc's; if you did the same thing to noisy, polluting,
dirty boats of all shapes and sizes, then I at least couldn't cry
discrimination against pwc's.

I'm not specifically singling out pwcs, except that they're a huge
cause of the problem. You don't get very many sailboats buzzing
anchorages with noisy engines and endangering lives in the process

We seem to be talking past each other on this point: you keep bringing
up sailboats
and I keep saying I"m talking about pwc's and other power boats. In
fact I've already
conceded that sail boaters probably cause fewer problems and in general
behave better.
I'm making the point that pwc's and their operators are not very
different from any other kind of POWER BOATS.
All right, sail boats have engines so maybe they're power boats, but
you know what I mean. NOT SAIL BOATS!

And, I'm making the point that pwcs and their operators are very
different that the other power boats. Most powerboat operators don't
buzz around the anchorages. Most actually try to avoid causing
problems or annoying others. That hasn't been my experience with
*most* PWCers. Sure, some people are good, some people are bad. My
point is that a much larger perecentage of PWCers have little or no
respect for others. I could cite example after example, but you
consider that acedotal evidence, yet you also say that the PWCers you
know are ok.



--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

wrote

We seem to be talking past each other on this point: you keep
bringing
up sailboats
and I keep saying I"m talking about pwc's and other power
boats. In
fact I've already
conceded that sail boaters probably cause fewer problems and in
general
behave better.
I'm making the point that pwc's and their operators are not
very
different from any other kind of POWER BOATS.

I agree with rich, ALL power boats should be banned.

SBV

I just know I share a love of the water, and a great number of
responsibilities and concerns, with everybody on this newsgroup, and
every other boater and pwc enthusiast out on the water. Here's

I have no doubt about you. I do have doubts about many pwc
entusiasts. They seem to be there for the machismo

Right, but what about boaters on power boats of other shapes and sizes?
Are they so much better - do you have so far fewer doubts about them?
Do you think any of them, non-pwc-power boaters, have a macho
inclination, that they like speed, showing off, bringing attention to
themselves, and drinking beer while boating? I'd say the percentage
is roughly the same in my observation.....maybe worse in one camp on
some scores, the other on others....(like maybe novice pwc'ers are more
likely to zip too near other boats or through a no-wake zone, where I'd
say even non-novice larger-boaters seem more likely to be drinking
constantly while boating....of course maybe that's just an unfair
stereotyping image on my part based on what seem to be a great
frequency of incidents that I have observed anecdotally, and maybe I
should go slow on thinking that those traits or behavior will apply to
all power-boaters or to the majority of them).

richforman

In article . com,
wrote:
I have no doubt about you. I do have doubts about many pwc
entusiasts. They seem to be there for the machismo

Right, but what about boaters on power boats of other shapes and sizes?
Are they so much better - do you have so far fewer doubts about them?
Do you think any of them, non-pwc-power boaters, have a macho
inclination, that they like speed, showing off, bringing attention to
themselves, and drinking beer while boating? I'd say the percentage
is roughly the same in my observation.....maybe worse in one camp on
some scores, the other on others....(like maybe novice pwc'ers are more
likely to zip too near other boats or through a no-wake zone, where I'd
say even non-novice larger-boaters seem more likely to be drinking
constantly while boating....of course maybe that's just an unfair
stereotyping image on my part based on what seem to be a great
frequency of incidents that I have observed anecdotally, and maybe I
should go slow on thinking that those traits or behavior will apply to
all power-boaters or to the majority of them).

I have some doubts, but the percentages are still better than with
pwcs. So, yes. Drinking beer while boating better not be seen by local
law enforcement. The legal limit is 0.08, and even if you have just
one, it's for sure going to result in a USCG boarding if they even
have a suspicion that you're inebriated.

Calling into question the alcohol issue is a red herring. That's not
what we're talking about. We're talking about excessive speed and
pollution in quiet anchorages. Sure, we get some powerboats (e.g.,
cigar boats) that zoom around, but not in an anchorage, because they
know better.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com