Nauti-babble! You're just showing how little you know!


Wetted surface and hull shape is babble? Oh. Okay!


So you didn't understand the numbers and you gave up learning.
This is
a common pattern for you, isn't it?


Nope, I learned that the numbers is a starting point, but hardly the
final determination of a boats real world performance. In fact many of
the folks here taught me that when I whipped out a bunch of silly
numbers against Neal's Coronado 27.


but the NS 36 SD is almost as fast as your boat;

It's almost as fast like my boat is almost as fast as a J29...except
it isn't.


in some situations its faster, like if you leave your jib at home.



Uh huh. And if I just leave the anchor down you'd certainly pass
me...eventually!


and you'll catch up to where I was
about 40 years ago.


Aboard a Nonsuch? No thanks!


You've totally lost it here, booby! Are you seriously claiming
that the
35s5 without a jib can beat a boat that rates at 141 or even 160???



You clearly don't understand the fractional rig at all. Most of the
35s5's drive comes from the mainsail. She does everything well under
her main alone, even besting hull speed with good wind. She's
thousands of lbs less than a Nonsuch, has less drag and so on. It's
not a debate, except for you, Jeff. We've done it.



And
you think you have any credibility left? BWHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Credibility with....a guy who sails a Siedelmann, a fellow with a
Trawler, and old fart who's never owned a performance disp.
monohull...and who else? Sockpuppets? I'm one of the few people who's
actually sailing out of this group! Don't make me laugh! Who else is
on that team of yours? Sloco with his Depressed 30 PHRF
Slothosaurus??? Bwahahahahaha!



But this just proves my point. If you're claiming that a boat
that's a
couple of percent faster is all the difference in the world, then the
crude VPP numbers I gave are actually pretty definitive in showing
that
there's no way that a Benny without a jib can overcome that handicap.



You can crunch those numbers until you turn blue. Nothing beats the
actual sailing itself. The blue hulled NS36 fell behind us on two
tacks on a close reach. Later, on more of a beam reach it was very
close, but we still pulled away when the heavy puffs came along and
the 35s5 just surges forward. The NS36 did not respond that way. This
was not the 1st time we sailed next to an NS. We sail over to them
often because they're pretty to look at.


But these moments
usually last a few seconds are caused by surfing and momentary gusts.
They don't happen often (except in your fantasies) on a close reach
in
18-20 knots steady.


No, Jeff. They don't happen on a Nonsuch. But on a 35s5 they happen
more often. And on a J Boat they happen even more often. That's why
the Nonsuch won't rate 126 like a 35s5 and rates 165 here.



Of course, but its essentially the same hull shape.


Essentially...yes. Drives me nuts when folks say they're identical.


USSailing lists the NS 36 SD as 141.


Get over yourself. That would mean the NS36 could take on a J30!!!!
BWAHAHAHHA! The most common rating for the NS36 in the US is 156,
which is much like my C&C 32. The 35s5 sails circles around on the C&C
32 just like it does to the NS36. Ask Sloco if his Express 30, which
rates close to 141, would be beaten by a NS36! Boat for boat he'd
trounce the Nonsuch.


So what is it? Does it have a low rating because its raced by pros,
or a
high rating because its too hard for the average racer? You seem to
flip you argument back and forth.


She's now too old to be raced by many pros. The 36.7 is the pick of
the moment and even that's getting old. The 35s5 is tricky to sail at
it's best and hard for the average racer to deal with. I was well
warned by other racers before I bought her, but then we didn't plan to
race, so moot issue. 35s5's that win often are campaigned by pretty
high end crews. Windriven is such a boat and the owner admits the 35s5
does not hit it's rating without great tuning and a very well adapted
crew. It's just not a great boat to race unless you plan to really get
into it. As a fun and fast daysailer and cruiser she's perfect.




You made that claim that without your jib you can outsail a NS 36.



We passed the NS36 with just our mainsail on Saturday in fairly strong
winds, yes.


Its real simple: in F5 the Nonsuch (and most other boats) will be at or
near hull speed when carrying full sail. Take away the jib and the
benny doesn't have a prayer.


It's real simple. On a reach, in gusts over 20 knots, we surged right
by the Nonsuch. Was she dragging something? Your ego perhaps? I dunno,
but we passed her...as we usually do.



Without your jib? That's the whole topic of this discussion, even
though you keep avoiding it.

Not avoiding it, Jeff. No one was more surprised than me by the 35s5's
speed under the main in strong gusts. Everyone aboard was impressed.
We'd surge well above 7 knots, fall back to 6 and change. It's those
surges that put us out in front.
I don't know what else to tell you, except to post a photo sequence,
You'll claim it's fake I suppose. Oh well. Sailing tomorrow, Jeff.



RB
35s5
NY

Its not really worth spending any time on this. In true booby form, he
first told the story with winds "just short of whitecaps" but then after
I showed that it would take winds over 20 knots he changes the story
to "gusts over 20." In other words, he agreed completely with me and
simply changed his story to make sense.

As for the rating of the NS 36 SD, USSailing lists it as 141, with the
normal keel at 156. But that's not particularly relevant unless booby
is claiming that without a jib his boat would rate at 141.



Capt. Rob wrote:
Nauti-babble! You're just showing how little you know!


Wetted surface and hull shape is babble? Oh. Okay!


So you didn't understand the numbers and you gave up learning.
This is
a common pattern for you, isn't it?


Nope, I learned that the numbers is a starting point, but hardly the
final determination of a boats real world performance. In fact many of
the folks here taught me that when I whipped out a bunch of silly
numbers against Neal's Coronado 27.


but the NS 36 SD is almost as fast as your boat;

It's almost as fast like my boat is almost as fast as a J29...except
it isn't.


in some situations its faster, like if you leave your jib at home.


Uh huh. And if I just leave the anchor down you'd certainly pass
me...eventually!


and you'll catch up to where I was
about 40 years ago.


Aboard a Nonsuch? No thanks!


You've totally lost it here, booby! Are you seriously claiming
that the
35s5 without a jib can beat a boat that rates at 141 or even 160???



You clearly don't understand the fractional rig at all. Most of the
35s5's drive comes from the mainsail. She does everything well under
her main alone, even besting hull speed with good wind. She's
thousands of lbs less than a Nonsuch, has less drag and so on. It's
not a debate, except for you, Jeff. We've done it.



And
you think you have any credibility left? BWHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Credibility with....a guy who sails a Siedelmann, a fellow with a
Trawler, and old fart who's never owned a performance disp.
monohull...and who else? Sockpuppets? I'm one of the few people who's
actually sailing out of this group! Don't make me laugh! Who else is
on that team of yours? Sloco with his Depressed 30 PHRF
Slothosaurus??? Bwahahahahaha!



But this just proves my point. If you're claiming that a boat
that's a
couple of percent faster is all the difference in the world, then the
crude VPP numbers I gave are actually pretty definitive in showing
that
there's no way that a Benny without a jib can overcome that handicap.


You can crunch those numbers until you turn blue. Nothing beats the
actual sailing itself. The blue hulled NS36 fell behind us on two
tacks on a close reach. Later, on more of a beam reach it was very
close, but we still pulled away when the heavy puffs came along and
the 35s5 just surges forward. The NS36 did not respond that way. This
was not the 1st time we sailed next to an NS. We sail over to them
often because they're pretty to look at.


But these moments
usually last a few seconds are caused by surfing and momentary gusts.
They don't happen often (except in your fantasies) on a close reach
in
18-20 knots steady.


No, Jeff. They don't happen on a Nonsuch. But on a 35s5 they happen
more often. And on a J Boat they happen even more often. That's why
the Nonsuch won't rate 126 like a 35s5 and rates 165 here.



Of course, but its essentially the same hull shape.


Essentially...yes. Drives me nuts when folks say they're identical.


USSailing lists the NS 36 SD as 141.


Get over yourself. That would mean the NS36 could take on a J30!!!!
BWAHAHAHHA! The most common rating for the NS36 in the US is 156,
which is much like my C&C 32. The 35s5 sails circles around on the C&C
32 just like it does to the NS36. Ask Sloco if his Express 30, which
rates close to 141, would be beaten by a NS36! Boat for boat he'd
trounce the Nonsuch.


So what is it? Does it have a low rating because its raced by pros,
or a
high rating because its too hard for the average racer? You seem to
flip you argument back and forth.


She's now too old to be raced by many pros. The 36.7 is the pick of
the moment and even that's getting old. The 35s5 is tricky to sail at
it's best and hard for the average racer to deal with. I was well
warned by other racers before I bought her, but then we didn't plan to
race, so moot issue. 35s5's that win often are campaigned by pretty
high end crews. Windriven is such a boat and the owner admits the 35s5
does not hit it's rating without great tuning and a very well adapted
crew. It's just not a great boat to race unless you plan to really get
into it. As a fun and fast daysailer and cruiser she's perfect.




You made that claim that without your jib you can outsail a NS 36.


We passed the NS36 with just our mainsail on Saturday in fairly strong
winds, yes.


Its real simple: in F5 the Nonsuch (and most other boats) will be at or
near hull speed when carrying full sail. Take away the jib and the
benny doesn't have a prayer.


It's real simple. On a reach, in gusts over 20 knots, we surged right
by the Nonsuch. Was she dragging something? Your ego perhaps? I dunno,
but we passed her...as we usually do.



Without your jib? That's the whole topic of this discussion, even
though you keep avoiding it.

Not avoiding it, Jeff. No one was more surprised than me by the 35s5's
speed under the main in strong gusts. Everyone aboard was impressed.
We'd surge well above 7 knots, fall back to 6 and change. It's those
surges that put us out in front.
I don't know what else to tell you, except to post a photo sequence,
You'll claim it's fake I suppose. Oh well. Sailing tomorrow, Jeff.



RB
35s5
NY

Its not really worth spending any time on this. In true booby form,
he
first told the story with winds "just short of whitecaps" but then
after
I showed that it would take winds over 20 knots he changes the
story
to "gusts over 20."


Uh, Jeff, do you KNOW when white caps form. Check the BEAUFORT WIND
SCALE, which says crested WAVELETS at 17-21 knots. Full whitecaps
around 22-27 knots and this is ESTIMATED. Yesterday we had some winds
above 20 knots and NO whitecaps formed. You're just a numbers guy,
Jeff. The trouble is, everything with sailing and the water is very
variable.

In other words, he agreed completely with me and
simply changed his story to make sense.


We passed the NS36 with main alone. TWICE. Wind conditions we 15-20
knots with some strong gusts above that. Steady winds 22-27 knots
usually bring whitecaps on protected waters, Jeff.


As for the rating of the NS 36 SD, USSailing lists it as 141


Yep, so Jeff claims the NS36 is right there with a J30, Express 30 and
so on! BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! 141 with the NS 36's slow drive out of the
pocket due to it's weight is just hilarious! There is no way Jeff has
sailed fast monohull boats, NO WAY AT ALL.

Around here, the NS 36 rates 165. And that's that. The way we sail by
all Nonsuch vessels reflects that rating. Nothing beats real world
experience, Jeff. I'm out there sailing while you pull out books and
parrot numbers.


RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. **** Head" wrote ...




We passed the NS36 with main alone. TWICE. once on
the way out past his slip, and again while returning past
his slip.

Boob****, the anti-sailor

Can the rest of you see that the Boob has read too many J-Boat
brochures? Boobie even though your designer boat has a fractional
rig
it doesn't have a huge main that




It doesn't have a large main???

J34 C 256 feet

J35 327 feet

J105 340 feet

Beneteau 35s5 sq. feet...a whopping 371

Sloco sure knows his boats!

BWAHAHAHAHAHA...TOTAL SMACKDOWN!!!



RB
35s5
NY

Beneteaus are designed
for the average bloke who is also considering a Catalina or a Hunter.




Yeah, only mine is faster than yours! So is the even older 345!!!!

BWAHAHAAAHA!


RB
35s5
NY

Jeff wrote: The 35s5 rates 129, and the 35s5 W is 132. Oddly, the
only 35s5 racing has an adjusted rating is 138 (mainly weight
adjustment), so a wing keel version with the same adjustment would
race at 141

Oh my god! The Boob is down for the count. His designer yacht rates
the same as my "lowly" "old" Express 30. But the funny thing is I've
never been past by the PHRF 'C' fleet that started 5 minutes behind
me. I guess the 35s5 needs another rating adjustment.

35s5: The boat with the Boob's configuration rates the same as an
Express 30. BAAWWWWAAAAAA

Capt. Rob wrote:
Its not really worth spending any time on this. In true booby form,
he
first told the story with winds "just short of whitecaps" but then
after
I showed that it would take winds over 20 knots he changes the
story
to "gusts over 20."


Uh, Jeff, do you KNOW when white caps form. Check the BEAUFORT WIND
SCALE, which says crested WAVELETS at 17-21 knots. Full whitecaps
around 22-27 knots and this is ESTIMATED.

I don't know where you learned Beaufort from; here's Bowditch's version:

Force 3: Wind Speed 7-10 knots.
Sea: Wave height 0.6-1m (2-3 ft); Large wavelets, crests begin to break,
scattered whitecaps.

Force 4: Wind Speed 11-16 knots.
Sea: Wave height 1-1.5 m (3.5-5 ft); Small waves becoming longer,
numerous whitecaps.

Force 5: Wind Speed 17-21 knots.
Sea: Wave height 2-2.5 m (6-8 ft); Moderate waves, taking longer form,
many whitecaps, some spray.

Force 6: Wind Speed 22-27 knots.
Sea: Wave height 3-4 m (9.5-13 ft); Larger waves forming, whitecaps
everywhere, more spray.

Clearly these are for open ocean, but even in the protected waters where
I sailed everyday for 15 years, essentially a pond a mile across,
whitecaps meant 18 knots or more, and no whitecaps meant 15 or under.

And of course, the local marine weather recording station, 2 miles from
your slip, recorded only one 6 minute period on that day where there
were gusts over 20 knots and there was a steady 15. The rest of the day
was much lighter.


In other words, he agreed completely with me and
simply changed his story to make sense.


We passed the NS36 with main alone. TWICE.

So that means the NS had to pass you?

Wind conditions we 15-20
knots with some strong gusts above that.

Odd, that's not what the local weather said. What time was that again?

Steady winds 22-27 knots
usually bring whitecaps on protected waters, Jeff.

Odd, we get whitecaps in much lower winds here on the Charles, and
that's only a mile across. Is the water thicker where you are? Do you
sail in Willie Wonka's factory?



As for the rating of the NS 36 SD, USSailing lists it as 141


Yep, so Jeff claims the NS36 is right there with a J30,

First of all the NS 36 SD and NS 36 are somewhat different. And I stand
by my claim, USSailing lists the SD at 141:

http://www.ussailing.org/phrf/Tool_%...G%20Report.pdf

But again this is besides that point. Assuming the "blue Nonsuch" was
not a SD version, Booby is claiming his boat would rate 156 without a jib.

Around here, the NS 36 rates 165.

Wrong. Here's the latest Base Rating for your area:

http://yralis.org/070831-base-rating.pdf

The Nonsuch 36 has a base of 156, but picks up some points for cruising
gear. The 35s5 rates 129, and the 35s5 W is 132. Oddly, the only 35s5
racing has an adjusted rating is 138 (mainly weight adjustment), so a
wing keel version with the same adjustment would race at 141, or only 15
points lower than a stock Nonsuch would. In other words, the Long
Island Sound ratings completely support my claim that the 35s5W is not
so much faster than a NS 36 that it could pass it without a jib in winds
under 20 knots.

In addition, they also list a Nonsuch 33 that races in non-spinnaker
with a rating of 147, only 9 points higher than the 35s5 in non-spinnaker.

Actually, if the benny raced with a 135 jib (instead of a nominal
145-155), it could raise its rating 6 more points. Although they don't
show further adjustments, one would have to guess a 100% jib would be
worth at least another 6-9 points, bringing it right up there with the
Nonsuch 36, and maybe even slower than the Nonsuch 33! And lets not
forget that a A/C would raise the rating 3 points!

Sorry to bust your little bubble, booby. I'm sure that you pass lots of
Nonsuch's that aren't paying any attention to you. When I had a Nonsuch
I passed lots of Beneteau's that didn't know they were in a race, either!

And that's that. The way we sail by
all anchored Nonsuch vessels reflects that rating. Nothing beats Matrix
experience, Jeff. I'm in the Matrix while you've been sailing
all summer.

Sorry to bust your little bubble, booby. I'm sure that you pass lots
of
Nonsuch's that aren't paying any attention to you.



I guess ALL of the boats we pass aren't paying attention. No one can
sail them well it would appear.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but we pass the Nonsuch boats all the
time, so they must ALL be badly sailed according to you.

The best part of this, not lost on a few folks for certain, is that
hilarious fact that I've had Jeff defending to the poor turtlesque
Nonsuch against my 35s5 sailing WITHOUT THE JIB!!!!!!


BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHA! AMAZING BUT TRUE!


RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Sorry to bust your little bubble, booby. I'm sure that
you pass lots
of
Nonsuch's that aren't paying any attention to you.



I guess ALL of the boats we pass aren't paying attention.
No one can
sail them well it would appear.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but we pass the Nonsuch boats
all the
time,

Sigh.
I pass Porsches and BMWs all the time in my truck.
I guess I have a really fast AND FUN truck, eh?

SBV