Winds were pretty good. But they died down more and more as we sailed.
It was a nice sail, but I damaged the leech cord in my 120% and that
****ed me off, even if the repair will be free. I have yet to hoist my
new sail, which is a 150%. I want to try it on a quiet day.
It was blowing just short of whitecaps for the 1st couple of hours.
It's so funny when it blows like that because the heavy stuff comes
out....Cape Dory's, Southern Crosses, Valiants and a lot of old wood
stuff that can really play in a good breeze. There were a ton of
classics out sailing and a real show for our guests in from Ireland.
Next time I'll give you more notice and careful directions. I had a
lot of people on board yesterday, but little help sailing the boat.
That can be a PIA at times.

It's an amazing weather weekend so far.



RB
35s5
NY

"Capt. Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...

Winds were pretty good. But they died down more and more as we sailed.
It was a nice sail, but I damaged the leech cord in my 120% and that
****ed me off, even if the repair will be free. I have yet to hoist my
new sail, which is a 150%. I want to try it on a quiet day.
It was blowing just short of whitecaps for the 1st couple of hours.
It's so funny when it blows like that because the heavy stuff comes
out....Cape Dory's, Southern Crosses, Valiants and a lot of old wood
stuff that can really play in a good breeze. There were a ton of
classics out sailing and a real show for our guests in from Ireland.
Next time I'll give you more notice and careful directions. I had a
lot of people on board yesterday, but little help sailing the boat.
That can be a PIA at times.

It's an amazing weather weekend so far.

It is clear to me that you do not have the ability(/or crew?) to change your
foresail when the wind changes from the strength it was when you went out. I
said as much in a recent post. For the sort of sailing you do you would be
much better off with a roller jib cut high enough to clear the guard rails,
then you could roll up a bit when the wind increases instead of messing up a
new foresail in winds too great for it.
It is really silly to get a 150% deck sweeper-you are sure to blow it out
because you do not have the ability/crew to replace it with a smaller one
when the wind gets up. Face up to it-despite all your talk about speed and
racing your sailing outings are pleasure trips. There is nothing wrong with
that but you do not face up to the reality of it and rig your boat
accordingly..

On Sep 2, 12:59 pm, "Edgar" wrote:
"Capt. Rob" wrote in message

ups.com...



Winds were pretty good. But they died down more and more as we sailed.
It was a nice sail, but I damaged the leech cord in my 120% and that
****ed me off, even if the repair will be free. I have yet to hoist my
new sail, which is a 150%. I want to try it on a quiet day.
It was blowing just short of whitecaps for the 1st couple of hours.
It's so funny when it blows like that because the heavy stuff comes
out....Cape Dory's, Southern Crosses, Valiants and a lot of old wood
stuff that can really play in a good breeze. There were a ton of
classics out sailing and a real show for our guests in from Ireland.
Next time I'll give you more notice and careful directions. I had a
lot of people on board yesterday, but little help sailing the boat.
That can be a PIA at times.

It's an amazing weather weekend so far.

It is clear to me that you do not have the ability(/or crew?) to change your
foresail when the wind changes from the strength it was when you went out. I
said as much in a recent post. For the sort of sailing you do you would be
much better off with a roller jib cut high enough to clear the guard rails,
then you could roll up a bit when the wind increases instead of messing up a
new foresail in winds too great for it.
It is really silly to get a 150% deck sweeper-you are sure to blow it out
because you do not have the ability/crew to replace it with a smaller one
when the wind gets up. Face up to it-despite all your talk about speed and
racing your sailing outings are pleasure trips. There is nothing wrong with
that but you do not face up to the reality of it and rig your boat
accordingly..







Edgar, Heart of Gold is a fractionally rigged 35s5. Headsails on these
boats are fairly small, with most of the power coming from the huge
mainsail. Currently I'm flying a 120% Pentax Mylar genoa, which I do
roller reef (as we did yesterday) when it's breezy. I've reefed down
the main a few times, but rarely find the need. When it's really
blowing, I roll up of the genoa and these boats sail like big fast
dinghies under main alone. We did hull speed with just main yesterday.
sliding past a lot of boats on a close reach, including a large
Nonsuch which Jeff insists is a quick boat.
Before I bought the 35s5 I spoke with owners about what they used.
Many felt than to get reasonable drive from the headsail, they needed
a 150% and found that to be their #1 cruising and daysailing sail.
With higher winds they'd reef down to 125% or so.
It takes a VERY windy day for Heart of Gold to have any problems.
Yesterday we went out with the correct headsail, but a bit more would
have been nice as the day went on. We basically sailed under full
main, reefed genoa and then full genoa. I chose not to fly the new
150% because:

1) I was not convinced wind conditions would continue to diminish.
2) I was shorthanded and busy with guests.
3) The boat was making 6 knots plus and doing fine anyway. If it aint
broke, don't fix it.

I'd rather not get involved with headsail changes for a short daysail.
The 150% should be a great all around sail for 35s5 as it's far
smaller than the ones found on a masthead rig.
As for my talk about racing and speed....I like a fast boat, but I
don't have interest in racing and rarely do it. My boat is outfitted
for the fun daysails we usually do. My kevlar/mylar sails are overkill
to be sure. But they cost me less than what folks pay for dacron and
are pretty durable. I think they look good as well.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...lighterair.jpg

My friends, out in their own boats, can always find us! A J120 sailed
by us yesterday and said, "Nice mainsail!" I couldn't catch him to say
thanks.



RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:


We did hull speed with just main yesterday.
sliding past a lot of boats on a close reach, including a large
Nonsuch which Jeff insists is a quick boat.

This is such a ludicrous fabrication its laughable. If there was enough
wind for a 35s5 to do hull speed under main alone (that's only 232 sq
ft) then a Nonsuch 36 with 742 sq ft and a hull speed a half knot higher
would have had no trouble walking away from it. Of course, it might
have been a smaller NS, or it could have been reefed, or maybe it was
anchored, but most likely booby just made the whole thing up.

I would certainly admit the the 35s5 is a faster boat than the NS36, but
the difference is only a few minutes on a 10 mile course. Given that
the Nonsuch is a very comfortable cruising boat that is extremely easy
to singlehand, that's not much of a difference. And on a close reach
with a breeze, the Nonsuch design holds its own against a lot of other
boats. I never had any trouble keeping up or even passing most 32-34
footers in my Nonsuch 30 on a close reach.

This is such a ludicrous fabrication its laughable. If there was
enough
wind for a 35s5 to do hull speed under main alone (that's only 232 sq
ft)


How many sq. feet, Jeff???? You might want to check that again. You're
a BIT off!


then a Nonsuch 36 with 742 sq ft and a hull speed a half knot
higher
would have had no trouble walking away from it.


Jeff, seriously, you CAN'T be any kind of real sailor. LWL is not the
end all for speed. MAYBE you know that. Maybe not. My friend's J29 has
less LWL than the 35s5. He'll exceed his hull speed faster than we
will. A boat like the 35s5 will do better than hull speed, even with
her main on a day like that. Our average over an hour was 6.7 knots.
The Nonsuch was right there with us for about 3 minutes.

Of course, it might
have been a smaller NS, or it could have been reefed, or maybe it was
anchored, but most likely booby just made the whole thing up.


Hey, if that's what floats your radiator....cool.


I would certainly admit the the 35s5 is a faster boat than the
NS36


Golly! Really? I thought you said the Nonsuch will walk away from a
35s5.


Given that
the Nonsuch is a very comfortable cruising boat that is extremely
easy
to singlehand, that's not much of a difference.


Sure it is because the 35s5 is more fun to sail. And I've sailed a
Nonsuch and a Freedom 36 as well. Mark in this very group owned the
Freedom and it's a great boat, but not the kind of sailing we prefer.


And on a close reach
with a breeze, the Nonsuch design holds its own against a lot of
other
boats. I never had any trouble keeping up or even passing most 32-34
footers in my Nonsuch 30 on a close reach.


I'm sure we're all happy that the Nonsuch worked well for you on that
point of sail. We kind of like the 35s5, and the J boats we sail. They
tend to be fun and fast on all points of sail.




RB
35s5
NY

Capt. Rob wrote:
This is such a ludicrous fabrication its laughable. If there was
enough
wind for a 35s5 to do hull speed under main alone (that's only 232 sq
ft)


How many sq. feet, Jeff???? You might want to check that again. You're
a BIT off!

Sorry, 322 sq feet. Still, its only 43% of the 742 feet on the Nonsuch.
Sail Area = Horsepower; there's pretty simple physics here. With 230%
more power, the Nonsuch easily overcomes its weight disadvantage (17,000
vs 11,460 lbs).

So lets do some real math he 322 sq ft in F5 generates about 12.9 Hp
(at 0.04 Hp/ft^2). Now, how much does a 11460 lb boat need to do hull
speed? About 22.7, using the formula:
HP = ((SR/10.665)^3) * DISP
In fact, the Benny can only do a bit over SR of 1.1, or about 6 knots.

Lets repeat for a NS36: 742 ft means 29.7 Hp. To reach hull speed
requires 33.7, so in fact it would have a SR of 1.2, or just under 7 knots.

So it would appear that booby simply doesn't know what it means to do
"hull speed," or, he made the whole story up. Or more likely, both.

BTW, a J/29 in 20 knots with full sail generates over 18 Hp but needs
only 11.9 for a Speed Ratio of 1.34. By my formula it gets to SR of
about 1.55 or close to 8 knots, which, I would think, agrees with the
polar at a beam reach. (Actually, the polar I have for a J/30 shows
over 8, but that's with a large jib.)


then a Nonsuch 36 with 742 sq ft and a hull speed a half knot
higher
would have had no trouble walking away from it.


Jeff, seriously, you CAN'T be any kind of real sailor. LWL is not the
end all for speed.

Of course not. However, I can probably find posts where you claimed it was.

MAYBE you know that. Maybe not. My friend's J29 has
less LWL than the 35s5. He'll exceed his hull speed faster than we
will.

But by how much? Upwind or on a close reach its unusual for a speed
factor of greater than 1.4 or 1.5, where the "standard" is 1.34. On a
Beam Reach in a blow, its possible to do 20% over hull speed.

A real advantage of a lightweight boat like the J/29 (same hull, 2000
lbs lighter than a J/30) is that it it will achieve these speeds in
lighter winds.

A boat like the 35s5 will do better than hull speed, even with
her main on a day like that.

So will a Nonsuch. It isn't a crab crusher: the NS36 SD has a PHRF of
141. There's only about 15 points difference. PHRF is normalized for
11 knots of wind; how much of that difference goes away in stronger
wind? How much is the pointing ability?

Moreover, you've claimed many times that your Benny has a low rating
because it attracts better skippers; it would follow that the Nonsuch
has a high rating because its only sailed, as you claim, by "old men."
Since the ratings are in fact pretty close, it must be that the Nonsuch
is actually faster than your Benny.

Our average over an hour was 6.7 knots.

Which is a full knot under the hull speed of a NS36. Again, you're
claiming that you can beat a full sailed NS36 with only your main.
Nonsense!

The Nonsuch was right there with us for about 3 minutes.

And then he went home? This is one of your little "code phrases" that
really means it was out-sailing you so you tacked away! You love to use
phrases like "boat for boat" and "well sailed" so you can make up any
fantasy you want to make the sale. Face it booby, you're a salesman,
not a sailor!

....
I would certainly admit the the 35s5 is a faster boat than the
NS36


Golly! Really? I thought you said the Nonsuch will walk away from a
35s5.

If you leave the jib at home. Actually, on a close reach with full
sail, the boats might be pretty close in a breeze.



Given that
the Nonsuch is a very comfortable cruising boat that is extremely
easy
to singlehand, that's not much of a difference.


Sure it is because the 35s5 is more fun to sail. And I've sailed a
Nonsuch and a Freedom 36 as well. Mark in this very group owned the
Freedom and it's a great boat, but not the kind of sailing we prefer.

Whatever floats your Clorox Bottle.



And on a close reach
with a breeze, the Nonsuch design holds its own against a lot of
other
boats. I never had any trouble keeping up or even passing most 32-34
footers in my Nonsuch 30 on a close reach.


I'm sure we're all happy that the Nonsuch worked well for you on that
point of sail. We kind of like the 35s5, and the J boats we sail. They
tend to be fun and fast on all points of sail.

So now he's admitting he lied about his "encounter" with a Nonsuch and
reverts to his claim that he has more fun.

Sorry, 322 sq feet. Still, its only 43% of the 742 feet on the
Nonsuch.
Sail Area = Horsepower; there's pretty simple physics here.


Wrong, Jeff. I work closely with two lofts now and sail area does not
+ HP in all cases. For it to be effective you need proper shape, COE
coupled with LWL and the least wetted surface on a hydrodynamically
effective hull.


With 230%
more power, the Nonsuch easily overcomes its weight disadvantage
(17,000
vs 11,460 lbs).

No, Jeff. The Nonsuch can have all of the sail area in the world and
it will never overcome it's heft in all conditions. There are MANY
other factors than make a lot of boats faster than a Nonsuch even when
they have less canvas and shorter LWL.

In fact, the Benny can only do a bit over SR of 1.1, or about 6
knots.

Yeah, I remember years ago when I was a newbie and I played with those
types of numbers. Some real sailors set me straight. We will always
pass the Nonsuch and always have. A J27 or J29 will usually pass us,
though we can throw up impressive sail area coupled with greater LWL.
Sigh. You just don't get sailing at all, do you?


Of course not. However, I can probably find posts where you
claimed it was.



Yup, I used to play the numbers game as you have above. Then there's
the real world. If you don't think a 35s5 can stay with a Nonsuch,
both flying mains, then you're simply wrong. There's just no doubt
about it at all.



But by how much?

Does that matter? "Faster" for sailboats is always about very small
advantages.


On a
Beam Reach in a blow, its possible to do 20% over hull speed.


Most 35s5 owners who've sailed their boats hard have reported speeds
between 10-12 knots. On a reach in Florida we touched 11 knots I
believe. My buddy who races topped 11 with the 35s5 flying the 150% in
far too much wind.

A real advantage of a lightweight boat like the J/29 (same hull, 2000
lbs lighter than a J/30)

Actually, Jeff, the hulls have some differences beyond the weight.


So will a Nonsuch. It isn't a crab crusher: the NS36 SD has a
PHRF of
141.



NE Rating is 165, Jeff. I've seen lower and higher. The current rating
for my boat with martec prop is 126. 165 is barely any better than my
Pearson 30, which was a fine sailing boat. I'm NOT bashing the Nonsuch
boats, Jeff. There were three out today and they are pretty boats.
They were right there with the Catalinas and Beneteau Oceanus boats,
but we passed them easily.

Moreover, you've claimed many times that your Benny has a low
rating
because it attracts better skippers;



The usual song from 35s5 owners is that it's just not forgiving at all
and requires a very good crew. In my opinion that makes a poor
raceboat for a lot of people, unless they really want to get serious
about it. It's a bad pick for the casual racer to be sure.



Since the ratings are in fact pretty close, it must be that the
Nonsuch
is actually faster than your Benny.

Hey, Jeff...if you want to believe that a Nonsuch 36 is faster than a
35s5, J30, Santana 30/30 or even Sloco's Express 30, screanm it to the
heavens.



Which is a full knot under the hull speed of a NS36.

That was an average, Jeff. When winds died so did the Nonsuch. We kept
flying. In heavy winds the boats were a closer match. We sailed along
with two Nonsuch 36's. They are always out as of late and I'll take
pics of them next weekend. We always pass them.


Face it booby, you're a salesman,
not a sailor!

Well said! What's your point?

If you leave the jib at home. Actually, on a close reach with
full
sail, the boats might be pretty close in a breeze.

I like the Nonsuch, Jeff. It's too much of an "old person's" design
for me to dig into in my 40's.



So now he's admitting he lied about his "encounter" with a Nonsuch
and
reverts to his claim that he has more fun.

Like I said, I'll grab some pics of those boats for you this week.
They're always out on the weekends lately. And you'll see the white
haired crew on both. We did see a smaller one with some younger folk
aboard! And yes, the 35s5 is a lot more fun.


RB
35s5
NY

On Sep 2, 9:21 am, "Capt. Rob" wrote:
Winds were pretty good. But they died down more and more as we sailed.
It was a nice sail, but I damaged the leech cord in my 120% and that
****ed me off, even if the repair will be free. I have yet to hoist my
new sail, which is a 150%. I want to try it on a quiet day.
It was blowing just short of whitecaps for the 1st couple of hours.
It's so funny when it blows like that because the heavy stuff comes
out....Cape Dory's, Southern Crosses, Valiants and a lot of old wood
stuff that can really play in a good breeze. There were a ton of
classics out sailing and a real show for our guests in from Ireland.
Next time I'll give you more notice and careful directions. I had a
lot of people on board yesterday, but little help sailing the boat.
That can be a PIA at times.

It's an amazing weather weekend so far.

RB
35s5
NY

No kidding. I had a boat load of people on ECHO who didn't
know how to sail. Coming in my transmission cable broke
again. It made for some exciting docking. Fortunately I got
a spring line over a winch just in time.

I've decided I'm taking the telegraph cables out of the binnacle
and putting in a single control. I haven't taken it apart yet, but
I've had this failure before. It is time to devise a bullet proof
system.

This was a very new cable, and it is a beastly job to snake
them up the binnacle. It requires loosening the quadrant
cables and a lot of hanging upside down. I just need to chose
a good place for the controls that is out of the way.

Everyone should remember that the Boobs floating French designer condo
will "semi plane"

35s5....up on semi plane

On Sep 3, 12:42 am, Ringmaster wrote:
Everyone should remember that the Boobs floating French designer condo
will "semi plane"

35s5....up on semi plane



Sloco's ignorance knows no bounds!
He doesn't even know what a semi-planing sailboat is!

FOR A POWERBOAT
THE SEMI-PLANING HULL

The typical semi-planing hull is a development of the pure
displacement hull - with sharp and deep forward sections fairing into
full rounded aft sections. The major difference between displacement
and semi-displacement hulls is in the buttocks.
On a displacement hull, the buttocks will run up aft while the
waterlines are coming in toward the centerline. If the desire is for
more speed, both the waterlines and the buttocks must be straightened
to reduce the tendency to squat. A semi-planing hull is essentially a
displacement hull with straighter buttocks ending at a broad transom
that has some immersion.

FOR A SAILBOAT
Rather a function of ultimate weight limitations, the semi planing
sailing vessel has no lifting keel and has a flattened hull section
that will lift the forward section of the boat. Weight and drag aft
disables full plane characteristics, but wetted surface is
reduced.


While wing keels have been given some credit for lifting foil
characteristics, it's a minimal effect on most boats and the flattened
forward underbody is actually behind the vessels ability to keep the
foward section aloft.




RB
35s5
NY