Joe wrote:
(Roy G. Biv) wrote in message . com...

Donal wrote:

Common sense tells me that doing 25 kts in fog is stupid.


http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...504230-07.hcsp


Good example of a major ****-up. If Donal paid attention he would of
read that I never pass or overtake at full speed. And I always do
everything I can to talk to the other vessel and make passing
agreements. Even after talking I will creep pass the other vessel
before getting back up on plane. These idiots assumed to much and paid
for it. I always treat the other vesseel in fog like Donal is at the
wheel and expect them to do something stupid.


http://www.shipownersclub.com/losspr...asia/39495.htm


Another great example of a **** up. Both had radars set at .75 miles
moving at 30 knots. If donal read my post he would see that I set my
radars at 1.5 miles and have well over 2 minutes to stop if I meet
another crewboat doing 20 knots.
And I have time to talk and AGREE on what whistle we are going to
pass.


Depends on where you are and what your set-up is.
If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad, especially
if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending
on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5
(scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.)
Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up
to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with
kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion.
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"
Well, .... common sense suggests to me that your radar cannot see
below
your bow.

Your an idiot Donal, I can see everything in front of my bow, that
why we usually mount radars at the top of the wheelhouse, true I might
not see something 10 foot in front of the bow but I will know it's
there because I saw it from a mile to 10 foot in front of the bow.


Do you place a lookout on the bow in restricted visibility?



Common sense also suggests that, in a river, boats could come out from
the
side, suddenly.


Ever hear 4 or 5 detroit diesels running at full speed? you can hear
them a mile away. Only problems I ever had were duck hunters that
pulled flat bottom boats up on the bank. Some times they get upset by
a wake. Most the locals and the guides know commerical boats run these
rivers and expect huge wakes. And find protected places to pull the
boats up.


So you rely on the fact that locals will recognise the sound of your
engines??




I sail near the Houston ship channel all the time. Several time I've
been fog bound, I did not have radar at the time. Just got out of the
channel and wated it out. But all the ships keep running at full speed
and send huge wakes out of the channel. I know if Im near the channel
these wake will come after the noise of the ship passing. It's one of
those common sence things.

Check out a coastal pilot for the Missippi delta area and you will
see that they have thick fog around 110 days a year on average. Is all
work suppose to stop?

No. The Coll Regs don't say that you have to *STOP*. However, they do say
that you should proceed at a safe speed. I cannot see that 25 kts could be
consifered a safe speed in fog.



How long do you think you would stay employed
for an oil company if you stopped every time fog blew in.

It depends on whether the oil company believed that it is acceptable to
observe the Coll Regs.


You stop for
24 hours to wait out fog you cost your customer 45,000 dollars to
100,000 dollars depending on the rig. And the
most expensive rigs are in the mississippi canyon area were the water
is 1400 foot deep. The companies knew my boat would do the job. That
whay I always worked the big money rigs like Bull Winkle.

Aaaahhhhh! Now, I understand. .... Coll Regs have a price????




Why in the hell do you think radars are put on boats? Is it just a
gadget to impress people like Bobspirt uses his?

Or is it a tool to help you complete a task?

Radar is a tool. However, Radar is only *one* tool.

Regards



Donal
--

So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

Donal wrote:
"Joe" wrote in message
om...

"Donal" wrote in message

...

"
Well, .... common sense suggests to me that your radar cannot see

below

your bow.


Your an idiot Donal, I can see everything in front of my bow, that
why we usually mount radars at the top of the wheelhouse, true I might
not see something 10 foot in front of the bow but I will know it's
there because I saw it from a mile to 10 foot in front of the bow.

No he's not, and no you can't, but considering the areas you are
running, what you miss will normally not affect your operation .... you
do take that chance, however.



Do you place a lookout on the bow in restricted visibility?

LOL He's on the bow, Donal .... the fact that he's in a wheelhouse, is
immaterial.




Common sense also suggests that, in a river, boats could come out from

the

side, suddenly.


Ever hear 4 or 5 detroit diesels running at full speed? you can hear
them a mile away. Only problems I ever had were duck hunters that
pulled flat bottom boats up on the bank. Some times they get upset by
a wake. Most the locals and the guides know commerical boats run these
rivers and expect huge wakes. And find protected places to pull the
boats up.



So you rely on the fact that locals will recognise the sound of your
engines??

Rely? I doubt it, but know that they will hear and understand it, yes
...... your point being?




I sail near the Houston ship channel all the time. Several time I've
been fog bound, I did not have radar at the time. Just got out of the
channel and wated it out. But all the ships keep running at full speed
and send huge wakes out of the channel. I know if Im near the channel
these wake will come after the noise of the ship passing. It's one of
those common sence things.

Check out a coastal pilot for the Missippi delta area and you will
see that they have thick fog around 110 days a year on average. Is all
work suppose to stop?


No. The Coll Regs don't say that you have to *STOP*. However, they do say
that you should proceed at a safe speed. I cannot see that 25 kts could be
consifered a safe speed in fog.

\
For most recreational boaters, I wouldn't consider 3k to be a safe speed
( for Neal, anything above 1.0 k would be excessive), but for the
guy/gal doing it, day in day out over the same route on the same boat, I
would, with the understanding that sometimes, it wasn't.


How long do you think you would stay employed
for an oil company if you stopped every time fog blew in.


It depends on whether the oil company believed that it is acceptable to
observe the Coll Regs.

LOL Don't be so naive. Most companies are run by accountants or
engineers who have zero concern for anything but the bottom dollar.



You stop for
24 hours to wait out fog you cost your customer 45,000 dollars to
100,000 dollars depending on the rig. And the
most expensive rigs are in the mississippi canyon area were the water
is 1400 foot deep. The companies knew my boat would do the job. That
whay I always worked the big money rigs like Bull Winkle.


Aaaahhhhh! Now, I understand. .... Coll Regs have a price????

LOL COLREGS may not have a price, but employment in different fields does!!!
Once again, you both are arguing the same issue from different
perspectives.....ain'tagonnawoik.... there's no excuse for a
recreational boater to be running 25k in fog .... there's a valid reason
for a commercial guy/gal to do so, but he/she needs to fully understand
the consequences, and accept them.
You also need to understand that for the average recreational boater to
try to do so, is totally stupid, but for the commercial guy who is
running constantly, day in and day out, it's a calculated risk.




Why in the hell do you think radars are put on boats? Is it just a
gadget to impress people like Bobspirt uses his?

Or is it a tool to help you complete a task?


Radar is a tool. However, Radar is only *one* tool.

Regards



Donal
--

Neal, you probably don't need to worry about that, since you
would likely be the dead party.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message
nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

Are you inferring that professional captains in the Misisipi area are
transvestites or gay? Both?

SV


"otnmbrd" wrote ...

but for the
guy/gal doing it, day in day out


for a commercial guy/gal to do so, but he/she needs to fully understand

"Donal" wrote in message ...
"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
No, no, no......

You have to guess your position without *any* aids.

Oh OK. Sorta like Physic viewing. ****...... if I could do that I'd be
working for the CIA.

Hmmmm. Now I think that I understand your dependance on radar.

You don't know how to navigate without high-tech aids, do you?

Its hard to dead reckon blind donal,
I could do a DTS type fix using a compass, but how will you take in
account set and drift without anything to take a fix on?

BTW what type of licences do you hold? How many times have DRed in the
fog?


Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked
out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master
navigator.

Guess your gonna listen to the wave slapping on the hull and count
the duration of each slap and figure your distance by counting waves
huh? And on top of that your going to know when you turn by were the
slapping occurs on the hull. or maybe the increadable Mr Limpid is
going to guide you. Come on Supermariner fill us in on your
increadable skills.

Or maybe your internal gyro is going to kick in, Or maybe you have
xray vision and can see thru the fog and hull.

Perhaps it your crystal ball.

Joe
Amazed at Donals magical skills.





Thats the answer.... Lets hire a Yachtsmaster to find Ossama.


Could an average yachtmaster do any worse than GWB?


Regards


Donal
--

Typically, uninformed statement.
In answer to your question .... No.
However, typically, commercial operators get caught in situations over
which they have no control, and have to continue on (For instance, I've
left the dock at Baton Rouge, La. and encountered fog shortly thereafter
and had no choice but to continue downriver because there was no
anchorage available.) or it's the nature of their business that they
have to go in all conditions and try to maintain a semblance of a
schedule .... which may mean that conditions will allow normal speeds,
but generally means they will frequently be slowing and then speeding
back up, or staying slow the whole way .... it's not a "yes or no"
condition.

Simple Simon wrote:
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...

G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

otnmbrd wrote in message news:qxoIb.12432

Depends on where you are and what your set-up is.
If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad,

On the HSC you also have traffic control to advise you of any other
traffic.


especially
if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending
on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5
(scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.)

Most crew boats do have 2 radar sets, usually I have one on standby
and just keep switching back and forth on the range selector. Keeps
you from getting a sore neck and prevents you from missing something
while moving from one display to the other, and on sunny days with
thick fog I like to keep my face buried in the radars rubber
hood/visor to keep from ruining your dark vision.


Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up
to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with
kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion.

Sounds about right. I worry more in open water than I do in the
rivers or channels because of wave clutter. Plus offshore I'd set up a
couple of range alarms. On the supply boat ive ran we had some nice
setup's. Radar on each side of the wheel with one set that will rotate
so the lookout can use it. We have contest all the time seeing who
could pick up targets first and calucating there speed and courses,
and CPA's. In heavy traffic areas we would wear the cursers out.



G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn



Do you have a radar endorsement?

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Capt. Otn,

It appears to me Joe is saying if it's a commercial
venture and not recreational boating then it's OK
to proceed in an unsafe manner while ignoring or
bending the Rules of the Road as applicable to
restricted visibility. It appears to me that you are
agreeing with him.

Appearances are sometimes misleading so I will
give you the benefit of the doubt because no
self-respecting, law abiding, USCG licensed Master
would knowingly and proudly claim he either ignores
or breaks specific COLREGS in the name of commerce.

The COLREGS apply to all vessels - there is no
distinction between commercial vessels and private
vessels when it comes to operating in restricted
visibility and to claim going 25 knots in restricted
visibility in congested areas like the lower Mississippi
and Gulf of Mexico is a safe and normal practice is
to show ignorance of the law and a disregard for
safety of life at sea. While you aren't saying this
directly your agreeing with one who IS does not
bode well for your common sense, education or
professionalism.

S.Simon




"otnmbrd" wrote in message news
Typically, uninformed statement.
In answer to your question .... No.
However, typically, commercial operators get caught in situations over
which they have no control, and have to continue on (For instance, I've
left the dock at Baton Rouge, La. and encountered fog shortly thereafter
and had no choice but to continue downriver because there was no
anchorage available.) or it's the nature of their business that they
have to go in all conditions and try to maintain a semblance of a
schedule .... which may mean that conditions will allow normal speeds,
but generally means they will frequently be slowing and then speeding
back up, or staying slow the whole way .... it's not a "yes or no"
condition.

Simple Simon wrote:
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...

G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn