"Donal" wrote in message
...
So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if
there is
effectively zero visibility. And yet many vessels maintain their normal
schedule in thick fog.

Or are you claiming that local knowledge is not an advantage in the fog?
Such
knowledge would certainly help one to keep the boat on a proper course, in
its
proper place in a channel.

No! I'm claiming that "local knowledge" does not mean that you may travel
at anything more than a safe speed!

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules for
this. I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog, and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea kayak.

There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?





The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to be a
good reflector?

Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.



Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?




"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the world
works.

Jeff Morris wrote:

I'm not so sure of that. Rule 19 is pretty clear that any movement may be
inappropriate, and vessels have been held completely at fault for leaving the
dock without radar.

Well, I am not going to get into a Nilesque ****ing match over how many
angels can dance on a copy of the COLREGS but if you run over the
kayaker, chances are extemely high you will not be a happy boater.

The kayaker was using all his resources. Were you? Why didn't you have a
lookout on the bow? Why were you going so fast? Only a half knot?, well,
since you didn't have time to turn you were going too fast then weren't
you? You will hear that at the hearing and the lawsuits later. So would
that tanker captain if he or she ran over a kayaker in those conditions.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
hlink.net...

Well, I am not going to get into a Nilesque ****ing match over how many
angels can dance on a copy of the COLREGS but if you run over the
kayaker, chances are extemely high you will not be a happy boater.

Yes, and if the family of a fool that runs across a highway at night in black
clothes has a good lawyer, I'd be an unhappy driver, also. That doesn't change
who's right.



The kayaker was using all his resources. Were you? Why didn't you have a
lookout on the bow? Why were you going so fast? Only a half knot?, well,
since you didn't have time to turn you were going too fast then weren't
you? You will hear that at the hearing and the lawsuits later. So would
that tanker captain if he or she ran over a kayaker in those conditions.


So, are you claiming that because a kayak could be found anywhere, its illegal
for any vessel to ever proceed in the fog? Are you saying the kayak has the
right to cross in front of a tanker? You're trying to apply a relative standard
in an absolute way.

And remember, I'm no trying to defend the sportfisherman doing 40 knots in the
fog; I'm just saying there are places the kayak doesn't belong. You're claiming
the kayak has the right to go anywhere and do anything he pleases. "Using all
his resources" is not an excuse for not using his brain.

-jeff

"Donal"

Let me see if I can splain this to ya Lanod were you might understand.

Look at the back of your hand. Do you know what it looks like?
Now take a red marker and put a dot on the back of your hand.
Now if you look at your hand again and there is a red dot on it will
you know that the back of your hand looks diffrent?

Same as a radar picture of a familiar channel, river, ect... that has
a new red dot on it, you can assume that is something like a boat in
the fog so you try to talk to them and make passing agreements, if
they do not talk you creep up and very carefully go around them.

Now if you see Capt Neals hand and it has a dot on the back are you
going to know if it was there before? Now if you do not ask him you
will never know.

Same thing you can do following a local, you can get on the radio and
ask is that dot I see on radar suppose to be there. Most likey he will
know. Thats because he has seen that picture a hundred times. He is
familiar with it and you are not. OK.....understand?

You may not understand how to maintain a proper watch by radar and
radio. But it can be done very safely, with local knowledge and an
understanding of the limits and abilitys of the tools you use.

Joe

Jeff Morris wrote:

Yes, and if the family of a fool that runs across a highway at night in black
clothes has a good lawyer, I'd be an unhappy driver, also. That doesn't change
who's right.

Being "right" has nothing to do with it.


So, are you claiming that because a kayak could be found anywhere, its illegal
for any vessel to ever proceed in the fog? Are you saying the kayak has the
right to cross in front of a tanker?

No, I am saying that the guy who runs over the kayak will be found in
the wrong to some degree.

Yes, the kayak has the same rights of navigation as the tanker within
the COLREGS and VTS requirements.

And remember, I'm no trying to defend the sportfisherman doing 40 knots in the
fog; I'm just saying there are places the kayak doesn't belong. You're claiming
the kayak has the right to go anywhere and do anything he pleases. "Using all
his resources" is not an excuse for not using his brain.

I am not "claiming the kayak has the right to go anywhere and do
anything he pleases" I am stating that the kayaker has the right to
maneuver where and how he pleases, just as you do, within the bounds of
COLREGS and if in a VTS area, the rules applicable to that area.

You want to play captain, you take the responsibility that comes with
the job.

Rick

"Rick" wrote in message
news
Jeff Morris wrote:

Yes, and if the family of a fool that runs across a highway at night in
black
clothes has a good lawyer, I'd be an unhappy driver, also. That doesn't
change
who's right.

Being "right" has nothing to do with it.


So, are you claiming that because a kayak could be found anywhere, its
illegal
for any vessel to ever proceed in the fog? Are you saying the kayak has the
right to cross in front of a tanker?

No, I am saying that the guy who runs over the kayak will be found in
the wrong to some degree.

I appreciate that blame is is usually shared. But if a kayak crosses an oil
tanker, what blame do you assign to tanker?



Yes, the kayak has the same rights of navigation as the tanker within
the COLREGS and VTS requirements.

What do you mean?


And remember, I'm no trying to defend the sportfisherman doing 40 knots in
the
fog; I'm just saying there are places the kayak doesn't belong. You're
claiming
the kayak has the right to go anywhere and do anything he pleases. "Using
all
his resources" is not an excuse for not using his brain.

I am not "claiming the kayak has the right to go anywhere and do
anything he pleases" I am stating that the kayaker has the right to
maneuver where and how he pleases, just as you do, within the bounds of
COLREGS and if in a VTS area, the rules applicable to that area.


In other words, you're agreeing with me. Thank you.


You want to play captain, you take the responsibility that comes with
the job.

I'm glad you agree with me.


Rick

Jeff Morris wrote:

I appreciate that blame is is usually shared. But if a kayak crosses an oil
tanker, what blame do you assign to tanker?

Without being too pedantic, it is not in my job description to assign
blame. There will be a board of Coast Guard officers to handle that
chore. It will be a decision based on more than I know about the
circumstances.

Yes, the kayak has the same rights of navigation as the tanker within
the COLREGS and VTS requirements.


What do you mean?

I mean the kayaker has the same right to displace that water as the
tanker operator. They must both adhere to the rules applicable to those
waters and their operation upon them.


In other words, you're agreeing with me. Thank you.

I am simply stating the facts that should be obvious to anyone who is in
command of a vessel on navigable waters.

You want to play captain, you take the responsibility that comes with
the job.


I'm glad you agree with me.

You don't need my agreement to be correct. I also believe that while
tradition and job security may dictate some coonass going like a bat out
of hell down the Atchafalaya or the HSC in zero visibility tradition
won't hold water in the hearing room or in court afterwards. Job
security ends at the point of impact.

Rick

Got to agree with Joe on this issue of remembering outlines/picking
differences. I could spot game faster than any of my friends when
hunting on my place even when they had a lot better eyesight - because
*I knew what that paddock looked like* - every stump, tree & rock. Any
new object was an animal and then it was just a matter of determining
if it could be shot or not.

PDW

In article , Joe
wrote:

"Donal"

Let me see if I can splain this to ya Lanod were you might understand.

Look at the back of your hand. Do you know what it looks like?
Now take a red marker and put a dot on the back of your hand.
Now if you look at your hand again and there is a red dot on it will
you know that the back of your hand looks diffrent?

Same as a radar picture of a familiar channel, river, ect... that has
a new red dot on it, you can assume that is something like a boat in
the fog so you try to talk to them and make passing agreements, if
they do not talk you creep up and very carefully go around them.

Now if you see Capt Neals hand and it has a dot on the back are you
going to know if it was there before? Now if you do not ask him you
will never know.

Same thing you can do following a local, you can get on the radio and
ask is that dot I see on radar suppose to be there. Most likey he will
know. Thats because he has seen that picture a hundred times. He is
familiar with it and you are not. OK.....understand?

You may not understand how to maintain a proper watch by radar and
radio. But it can be done very safely, with local knowledge and an
understanding of the limits and abilitys of the tools you use.

Joe

"Jeff Morris" wrote in message
...

"Donal" wrote in message
...
So where in the Colregs does it say you can't run on radar alone? Of
course,
one should always have a visual (and sound) watch, but that is moot if

25 kts in thick fog is NOT safe, if there is even the slightest
possiblity
of an encounter with another craft.

I'll admit that 25 knots does seem excessive in a lot of situations, and
its
rather unlikely that I would be going over 7 or 8 knots in thick fog (and
even
that would often be considered excessive). But there are no fixed rules
for
this.

What do you mean by "no fixed rules"??

AFAIK, there are very strict rules that govern the behaviour of vessels in
fog.

Are you suggesting that big ships are exempt from the Coll Regs?


I'm sure the Bar Harbor Fast Cat Ferry doesn't slow much in the fog,

My copy of the Coll Regs does not mention the "Bar Harbour Fast Cat Ferry".
I was under the impression that the Coll Regs were more authoritive than
your local ferry's skipper.




and
there is a chance some idiot is crossing the Bay of Fundy in his sea
kayak.


I don't believe that "idiocy" is an issue when trying to determine "stand
on" status. Am I wrong?



There's always "the slightest chance," someone could be rowing across the
Atlantic. Should all traffic stop because of a slight possibility?

Read the Coll Regs. I believe that the issue is covered.

A row boat has the same right as an oil tanker to use the Atlantic. The
Coll Regs were designed to make it safe for both of them.









The problem is that small boats without radar, that are not good
reflectors,
will be invisible. They have no business being out in fog.

Wow! I'm almost speechless (but not completely)!

Jeff, I would like to ask if the Coll Regs place any duty on a boat to
be a
good reflector?

Absolutely. Positively. Meditate on Rule 2 for a while. Every seaman
would
agree its folly to cross a shipping lane in the fog in a stealth kayak.


Where can you buy one of these "stealth kayaks"?

Are you so far out on this limb that you are having to use the concept of
fictional craft to back up your position?

I haven't bothered to look at Rule 2, .... because your position seems
ludicrous. I have read the Coll Regs in the past, and I believe that each
vessel has a duty to keep an adequate lookout.


You seem to be suggesting that vessels have an obligation to be seen!!!






Do the Coll Regs place any duty on a vessel to keep a look out for
other
vessels?


Of course. How does a vessel without radar do this in the fog?

By travelling slowly ... and keeping a lookout. If the fog is very thick,
then the vessel travels *very* slowly.







"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information"
ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)


I think that is what I was saying!!


No. You're ignoring reality. You're claiming that all large vessels
should
never proceed in the fog, because there's a chance of running over an
invisible
kayak in the middle of the ocean. You're taking a situation with a huge
amount
of gray area and trying to make it black and white; that's not the way the
world
works.


You raised the issue of "scanty information".

In thick fog, a skipper has scanty information.

The Coll Regs suggest that you should post a lookout, and that you should
slow down to a safe speed in fog.

Why do you have a problem with this?
It's all very simple. DO NOT travel at a speed where poor visibility
means that you cannot take the necessary avoiding action.



Regards


Donal
--

"Peter Wiley" wrote in message
. ..

Got to agree with Joe on this issue of remembering outlines/picking
differences.

I don't disagree that one can become familiar with a coastline/river from
the radar picture.

I disagree with the proposition that a Radar watch(at 25 kts) can be
considered " an effective lookout".

Most people agree that you need to post a lookout on the bow in thick fog,
and that you need to be going slowly enough to respond to a warning from the
bowman.

Regards


Donal
--