"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

No it's not OK to run over and kill anyone.

But most ships have radars that cost 10 times what your boat cost.
They are excellent tools that you use with radios gps,s chart plotters
ect that allow you to do a job safely, that can not be done on the
adverage recreation craft.

Plus Ships in a channel usually require pilots, guys that during an
exam have to draw a chart of a ship channel and harbor from memeory
including every aid to navigation, dock, ect. They have 100's if not
thousands of trips in that local area.

Tell me Neil, Do you have a radar endorsement on the back of your
licences? How's about a radio endorsement? How's about any
endorsements?

Didn't think so.

Your basic, and with your attitude you will stay a basic mariner,
never a master mariner.

Joe
MSV RedCloud





"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

I don't care if you have the whole, God Damned,
Houston Space Center on the bridge of your ship.
You are still in violation of Rule 19 and many of
the Rules in Section 1.

S.Simon


"Joe" wrote in message om...
"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
So, it's OK to run over and kill people in
the name of making a living? I'd love
to be in the courtroom when you spout
that as a defense.

S.Simon

No it's not OK to run over and kill anyone.

But most ships have radars that cost 10 times what your boat cost.
They are excellent tools that you use with radios gps,s chart plotters
ect that allow you to do a job safely, that can not be done on the
adverage recreation craft.

Plus Ships in a channel usually require pilots, guys that during an
exam have to draw a chart of a ship channel and harbor from memeory
including every aid to navigation, dock, ect. They have 100's if not
thousands of trips in that local area.

Tell me Neil, Do you have a radar endorsement on the back of your
licences? How's about a radio endorsement? How's about any
endorsements?

Didn't think so.

Your basic, and with your attitude you will stay a basic mariner,
never a master mariner.

Joe
MSV RedCloud





"otnmbrd" wrote in message nk.net...
G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:37:28 GMT, wrote
this crap:

On 31 Dec 2003 08:46:12 -0800, (Joe) wrote:


Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked
out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master
navigator.


I could do it easily.

BB

Cuz you never leave the dock.




This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe

Comments interspersed:

Joe wrote:
otnmbrd wrote in message news:qxoIb.12432

Depends on where you are and what your set-up is.
If you are running HSC or the Miss., this would not be bad,


On the HSC you also have traffic control to advise you of any other
traffic.

G It's been awhile. They didn't have it when I was running there.


especially

if you only have one set. If you had two, for that type boat, depending
on where you are, I might suggest one set at 3.0m and the other on 1.5
(scanning down on the 1.5m set, at times.)


Most crew boats do have 2 radar sets, usually I have one on standby
and just keep switching back and forth on the range selector. Keeps
you from getting a sore neck and prevents you from missing something
while moving from one display to the other, and on sunny days with
thick fog I like to keep my face buried in the radars rubber
hood/visor to keep from ruining your dark vision.

People vary, in how they operate. If I've got two sets, they're both on
..... I may concentrate on one particular one, but I like to be able to
glance at the other for the "larger" picture, and/or have it there if
something should go wrong with the first (have had that happen).



Once clear of the channel, into the Gulf, I'd probably kick one set up
to 6.0m (at least) and the other to 3.0m (if only one set, 3.0m with
kick ups to 6.0m)then scan the 3.0m set, down, on occasion.


Sounds about right. I worry more in open water than I do in the
rivers or channels because of wave clutter. Plus offshore I'd set up a
couple of range alarms. On the supply boat ive ran we had some nice
setup's. Radar on each side of the wheel with one set that will rotate
so the lookout can use it. We have contest all the time seeing who
could pick up targets first and calucating there speed and courses,
and CPA's. In heavy traffic areas we would wear the cursers out.




G Personal opinion .... On a ship, it would be totally different.
For the average recreational boater, if you don't have to go in these
conditions, don't .... if you get caught in them, slow WAY down, and
take your time .... you're doing it for fun, not to make a living.

otn




Do you have a radar endorsement?

Yes. Required of my license.

otn

Joe
MSV RedCloud

Comments interspersed:

Simple Simon wrote:
Capt. Otn,

It appears to me Joe is saying if it's a commercial
venture and not recreational boating then it's OK
to proceed in an unsafe manner while ignoring or
bending the Rules of the Road as applicable to
restricted visibility. It appears to me that you are
agreeing with him.

I can't speak for Joe, only the conditions.
First off, read rule 6 again. Each operator must consider a safe speed
under ANY conditions of visibility, the maneuverability of the
particular vessel, the navigation equipment, etc..
For you, in your vessel, in fog, to proceed at 6k, would be excessive
speed. You have no radar, and thusly, no way to closely monitor and be
aware of traffic within your area, and with your small outboard, a crash
stop will probably take a couple of boat lengths. Add to this, that you
are rarely underway, except on some weekends for a few hours and may or
may not be traveling familiar routes.
Now, let's take the "Joe's" of the world. They're running day in and day
out, on the same routes, in all conditions, and are highly familiar with
radar and what they see on it .... to them, the only difference between
a clear day and a foggy day, is how they get their visual input as to
where they are and where they're going, and their boats can stop in a
boat length or less (especially if they've slowed down for something
they're not sure of).

Are they breaking the rules? G In some cases yes. In some cases maybe,
and in some cases, not really (won't say "no", because that doesn't
exist). Do I condone this type of operation? ..... only if they make it
through their entire career, without an accident......Try to understand
this, Neal .... this paragraph applies to me as well as all others.

Appearances are sometimes misleading so I will
give you the benefit of the doubt because no
self-respecting, law abiding, USCG licensed Master
would knowingly and proudly claim he either ignores
or breaks specific COLREGS in the name of commerce.

I break specific COLREGS all the time. Rule 2, allows me to do this and
says that I will, if conditions warrant. The difference is, I try to
obey the COLREGS, whenever possible .... it's not always possible.


The COLREGS apply to all vessels - there is no
distinction between commercial vessels and private
vessels when it comes to operating in restricted
visibility and to claim going 25 knots in restricted
visibility in congested areas like the lower Mississippi
and Gulf of Mexico is a safe and normal practice is
to show ignorance of the law and a disregard for
safety of life at sea. While you aren't saying this
directly your agreeing with one who IS does not
bode well for your common sense, education or
professionalism.

G The vast majority of traffic in the lower Miss. is commercial, and
it's generally not all that congested, except to an amateur, such as
yourself. If you paid attention to the radio traffic in that area, you'd
know that all these vessels are in frequent and constant radio
communication with each other, for "passing situations", be it clear or
restricted visibility.
These people are NOT showing ignorance of the law, OR a disregard for
safety of life at sea. What they ARE doing, is operating at a level,
which FAR exceeds your understanding and abilities AND license
qualifications.
As per usual, Neal, you are trying to discuss a subject, on a level that
you have no chance of attaining, and even less, understanding.

otn

Cuz if you did, your boat would sink.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:37:28 GMT, wrote
this crap:

On 31 Dec 2003 08:46:12 -0800, (Joe) wrote:


Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked
out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master
navigator.


I could do it easily.

BB

Cuz you never leave the dock.




This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe

**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****



Hey, Ganz,

I'm outta here. Just wanted to let you know that
I think you are alright and I was only kidding about
putting your puter out of commission come New Years.

Fair winds to you and all the rest of alt.sailing.asa.

I'll check in when I get back from cruising, maybe in
2005.

S.Simon - aka Capt. Neal


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Cuz if you did, your boat would sink.

"Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:37:28 GMT, wrote
this crap:

On 31 Dec 2003 08:46:12 -0800, (Joe) wrote:


Tell us Donal, How can you fix your position with the windows blacked
out, no gps, no loran, no chart no radar. OH Tell us O master
navigator.


I could do it easily.

BB

Cuz you never leave the dock.




This signature is now the ultimate power in the universe





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"Roy G. Biv" wrote in message
om...

I recall just such an accident happened in fog between the Fort Meyers
Ferry and a small fishing boat, which I reported to Alt Sail ASA back
in 2001 during a thread on navigating in fog:
heres the text, link below;

---------------------------------

During a recent fog on the Florida west coast
the Ft Meyers Ferry (FT Meyers - Key West)
collided with a small fishing vessel in fog, 1 dead, two injured.
From
the photos in the local
paper, the smaller vessels bow/fwd quarter hit the ferrys stb. side.

of course, _Both_ vessels are at fault as a collision should have been
avoidable had Both vessels been maintaining a prudent speed and watch.

The Ferry has multiple radar, the fishing vessel had a substantial
aluminum framed T-top with above console mounted electronics box (not
just a bimini)


As it happened, I was in Key West when this occurred. The story, as I heard it,
was that the small fishing boat was tracked on radar by two ferries which were
traveling roughly side by side. They were in contact with each other but could
not raise the small boat, which was approaching at over 25 knots. The danger
signal was sounded by a ferry, but its not clear it was heard by the small boat.
It passed behind the near ferry and plowed into the second at speed.

I forget the final resolution of the incident - typically fault is shared in
cases of collision, but its hard to find fault with the actions of the ferries
in this case.


--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs,
Rule 7(c)

"Joe" wrote in message
om...
"Donal" wrote in message
...
"Joe" wrote in message
m...
(Roy G. Biv) wrote in message news


Yeah, I recall a ferry smashing into the dock in the clear daylight
not so long ago in NY. Accidents happen.

They failed to maintain a proper lookout with radar. Has nothing to
do with safe speed, the jerk you talked about most likely would of ran
someone over at 3 knots.

Are you claiming that you can maintain a proper lookout with radar
alone?


Thats what I'm claiming Donal. I would not suggest it running a
strange river for the first time, but if you have navigated the same
area many times and you know it like the back of your hand then you
can safely run it with a quality fine tuned radar.

Emmmm... Aren't we discussing the Coll Regs? The International Rules for
the avoidance of Collisions??

I don't see how "familiarity" with a particular stretch of water can help
you avoid a collision.





I've done it a
thousand times. Nothing to it. If it's fog bound in an area I'm not
familiar with I usually wait and follow someone that knows the area.

Jeeeze! I'm only an amateur, but one of my basic rules is "NEVER Follow
Anybody" - they might be as lost as you are!


You are the perfect example of the weekend warrior that has no clue.
Take you boat out every day for a year and study every dock,
bend,tank, slip, strem,ect on your radar, add those details to your
charts, including the names of every dock. Study your local area and
you will be able to do the same without a problem.

And yet you claim that you are happy to follow somebody else when you are in
unfamiliar waters??? (See above).
Following people who "know the area" is the best way of running aground that
I have come across.




Joe,
You are a menace! It is obvious that you shouldn't be allowed to sail
anywhere.


Regards


Donal
--

Jeff,

what two ferries run that area and would have a schedule placing them
running side by side?

I reported what I read in the newspaper. . .



"Jeff Morris"


As it happened, I was in Key West when this occurred. The story, as I heard it,
was that the small fishing boat was tracked on radar by two ferries which were
traveling roughly side by side. They were in contact with each other but could
not raise the small boat, which was approaching at over 25 knots. The danger
signal was sounded by a ferry, but its not clear it was heard by the small boat.
It passed behind the near ferry and plowed into the second at speed.

I forget the final resolution of the incident - typically fault is shared in
cases of collision, but its hard to find fault with the actions of the ferries
in this case.