Bologna! One does not need a professional survey on an old
used, and inexpensive boat. Save that for the newer ones that
cost an arm and a leg.

The fact is anyone (even you, Jeff) who has some experience
with boats should know what to look for. How hard is it
to stomp around on deck? How hard is it to look for blisters
on the bottom? How hard is it to apprise the mast and rigging?
How hard is it to survey the sails, anchors and other gear?

Not very!

Do you hire a surveyor when you buy a used car?
I think not. The most anyone does is get a mechanic to look
at the brakes and do a compression check and people are
paying more for cars than for older used boats.

Surveyors are unnecessary on older boats thirty feet and
under - that's the straight skinny.

S. Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message ...
I would never, ever buy a boat without a survey. No way, no how. And this boat is 30
years old? What will the brokerage do if the day after you buy it you find the deck is
soggy and has to be rebuilt? Will they smile and refund $5000 to do the job? I think
not! Unless you're getting this dirt cheap, I mean a few thousand dollars or less, you
need a survey. Even if the boat passes with no major problems, it will be worth the
several hundred bucks for the education. And the prioritized worklist it will generate
will save you a fortune in the long run.

And when you pick a surveyor, do not accept the one recommended by the broker. Their
purpose in the process is not to protect you, but to facilitate mortgages and insurance.
Find one that won't mind telling you to walk away if the boat isn't up to snuff.


"Steve Daniels" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:00:55 GMT, "The Carrolls"
wrote:

You have enough experience. you have done a bit of homework also, you will
do fine. Just remember the guy you buy this boat from most likely wasn't
afraid to use it as is, you may find things you dont like about it, but
don't get cought up in fixing things that are actually ok. When I bought my
boat, it was in Grand haven MI , and I live in Monroe, all the way around.
There were things I worried about and adressed that turned out to be time
and money wasted. Just make sure when you fix or replace something it is
something that you should address not just something you want to, save the
want to untill you need to or have time and money later. IMHO Good luck,
Good sailing Wes Carroll

I think I know what you mean.

It has a alcohol stove that I'd like to swap out for propane, but I
notice that a lot of people are using alcohol stoves with little to no
difficulty. This boat has gate valves at the thru hulls, and I'd like
to swap those out for quarter twist ball valves, but I'm not going to
do a special haul out just for that.

If I can get her surveyed for a couple of hundred bucks, I think I'll
have that done, if for no other reason than to have a list of things
to work on later. It's being sold by a brokerage, and it looks like
they only list reasonably good quality boats.

Not true at all. Buying a used car for thousands of dollars
without first getting it checked by a reliable mechanic not
associated with the transaction is worth the money. The same
goes for a boat. The surveyor does a more thorough job of
inspecting the boat that the perspective owner could do in the
short time available. In addition, since she would be uninterested
third party, you'll get an honest, no-dream-struck opinion of
the boat. In the process, you'll learn a heck of a lot about the
boat, which assuming it passes muster, will be quite valuable
after the purchase. If it doesn't pass muster, the owner also
benefits, since she will get a detailed list of the problems.

As far as cars go, I considered buying a used car and fortunately
took it to a mechanic friend (I used to work on cars also, so I
know a thing or three about cars). He found structural problems
that were hidden by paint. He found a bent frame that was not
obvious. Saved me thousands just because I bothered to get
a second opinion.

The only reason I didn't get a survey on my Cal 20 before
purchase was because it was basically free. I enjoyed fixing
the problems, I had plenty of time to do it myself, and I learned a
lot along the way.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Bologna! One does not need a professional survey on an old
used, and inexpensive boat. Save that for the newer ones that
cost an arm and a leg.

The fact is anyone (even you, Jeff) who has some experience
with boats should know what to look for. How hard is it
to stomp around on deck? How hard is it to look for blisters
on the bottom? How hard is it to apprise the mast and rigging?
How hard is it to survey the sails, anchors and other gear?

Not very!

Do you hire a surveyor when you buy a used car?
I think not. The most anyone does is get a mechanic to look
at the brakes and do a compression check and people are
paying more for cars than for older used boats.

Surveyors are unnecessary on older boats thirty feet and
under - that's the straight skinny.

S. Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
I would never, ever buy a boat without a survey. No way, no how. And
this boat is 30
years old? What will the brokerage do if the day after you buy it you
find the deck is
soggy and has to be rebuilt? Will they smile and refund $5000 to do the
job? I think
not! Unless you're getting this dirt cheap, I mean a few thousand
dollars or less, you
need a survey. Even if the boat passes with no major problems, it will
be worth the
several hundred bucks for the education. And the prioritized worklist
it will generate
will save you a fortune in the long run.

And when you pick a surveyor, do not accept the one recommended by the
broker. Their
purpose in the process is not to protect you, but to facilitate
mortgages and insurance.
Find one that won't mind telling you to walk away if the boat isn't up
to snuff.


"Steve Daniels" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:00:55 GMT, "The Carrolls"
wrote:

You have enough experience. you have done a bit of homework also, you
will
do fine. Just remember the guy you buy this boat from most likely
wasn't
afraid to use it as is, you may find things you dont like about it,
but
don't get cought up in fixing things that are actually ok. When I
bought my
boat, it was in Grand haven MI , and I live in Monroe, all the way
around.
There were things I worried about and adressed that turned out to be
time
and money wasted. Just make sure when you fix or replace something it
is
something that you should address not just something you want to,
save the
want to untill you need to or have time and money later. IMHO Good
luck,
Good sailing Wes Carroll

I think I know what you mean.

It has a alcohol stove that I'd like to swap out for propane, but I
notice that a lot of people are using alcohol stoves with little to no
difficulty. This boat has gate valves at the thru hulls, and I'd like
to swap those out for quarter twist ball valves, but I'm not going to
do a special haul out just for that.

If I can get her surveyed for a couple of hundred bucks, I think I'll
have that done, if for no other reason than to have a list of things
to work on later. It's being sold by a brokerage, and it looks like
they only list reasonably good quality boats.

Nonsense. I would agree if this was a $3000 boat, but the asking price could be as high as
$15-$20K. The OP said he would be offering near asking, and this was a high quality broker - I can
only assume the price is fairly high. It may even be worth the price, but only if there are no
problems.

I've seen good surveyors find nasty water intrusion in the cockpit based on a small unexplained rust
spot away from the leak. I've seen blisters uncovered when they were hidden by fresh bottom paint.

The only time a boat can be bought without a survey is if the price is so low you can literally
throw it away. I can understand, however, why you think this applies to all boats under 30 feet.
It certainly would apply to yours.

--
-jeff

"Simple Simon" wrote in message ...
Bologna! One does not need a professional survey on an old
used, and inexpensive boat. Save that for the newer ones that
cost an arm and a leg.

The fact is anyone (even you, Jeff) who has some experience
with boats should know what to look for. How hard is it
to stomp around on deck? How hard is it to look for blisters
on the bottom? How hard is it to apprise the mast and rigging?
How hard is it to survey the sails, anchors and other gear?

Not very!

Do you hire a surveyor when you buy a used car?
I think not. The most anyone does is get a mechanic to look
at the brakes and do a compression check and people are
paying more for cars than for older used boats.

Surveyors are unnecessary on older boats thirty feet and
under - that's the straight skinny.

S. Simon


"Jeff Morris" jeffmo@NoSpam-sv-lokiDOTcom wrote in message
...
I would never, ever buy a boat without a survey. No way, no how. And this boat is 30
years old? What will the brokerage do if the day after you buy it you find the deck is
soggy and has to be rebuilt? Will they smile and refund $5000 to do the job? I think
not! Unless you're getting this dirt cheap, I mean a few thousand dollars or less, you
need a survey. Even if the boat passes with no major problems, it will be worth the
several hundred bucks for the education. And the prioritized worklist it will generate
will save you a fortune in the long run.

And when you pick a surveyor, do not accept the one recommended by the broker. Their
purpose in the process is not to protect you, but to facilitate mortgages and insurance.
Find one that won't mind telling you to walk away if the boat isn't up to snuff.


"Steve Daniels" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 09:00:55 GMT, "The Carrolls"
wrote:

You have enough experience. you have done a bit of homework also, you will
do fine. Just remember the guy you buy this boat from most likely wasn't
afraid to use it as is, you may find things you dont like about it, but
don't get cought up in fixing things that are actually ok. When I bought my
boat, it was in Grand haven MI , and I live in Monroe, all the way around.
There were things I worried about and adressed that turned out to be time
and money wasted. Just make sure when you fix or replace something it is
something that you should address not just something you want to, save the
want to untill you need to or have time and money later. IMHO Good luck,
Good sailing Wes Carroll

I think I know what you mean.

It has a alcohol stove that I'd like to swap out for propane, but I
notice that a lot of people are using alcohol stoves with little to no
difficulty. This boat has gate valves at the thru hulls, and I'd like
to swap those out for quarter twist ball valves, but I'm not going to
do a special haul out just for that.

If I can get her surveyed for a couple of hundred bucks, I think I'll
have that done, if for no other reason than to have a list of things
to work on later. It's being sold by a brokerage, and it looks like
they only list reasonably good quality boats.

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:46:48 -0400, something compelled "Simple
Simon" , to say:

Bologna! One does not need a professional survey on an old
used, and inexpensive boat. Save that for the newer ones that
cost an arm and a leg.

I couldn't wait for the weekend, so I took a few hours off and
drove in to see her. My impression is that she's basically
solid, but hasn't had any attention paid to her in quite some
time.

It looks like most of the running rigging is sun damaged and will
have to be replaced. There is some ugly goop around all of the
lifeline stanchions, and I'll probably remove all of them and bed
them properly. The tiller is delimitated, but looks good enough
to get home with. I have a friend who likes to work with wood,
and I think we can make a new tiller using the old one for a
pattern.

The engine is clean, and has clean oil in it. The running lights
all work, and the VHF makes static noises when you turn it on.
The blower works.

I offered nine grand subject to survey. It's sat long enough
that I want an objective opinion, and they are going to haul her
and power wash the bottom, which I would want done anyway.
Depending on how that goes, I'll decide if I want the bottom
painted at that time or not. She'll mostly be in fresh water, so
I don't know that bottom paint is all that necessary.

The feeling is that what she really needs is a few weekends with
some fine sandpaper and teak oil, and maybe some paint for the
decks.

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 19:30:55 -0700, something compelled "Steve
Daniels, Seek of Spam" , to say:

The feeling is that what she really needs is a few weekends with
some fine sandpaper and teak oil, and maybe some paint for the
decks.

Oh hell, here's what brought me there in the first place.

http://tinyurl.com/qyko

There is some ugly goop around all of the
lifeline stanchions

Warning! Warning! Warning! (as the robot said to Will Robinson...) Get =
a moisture meter if you're not going to get a survey...bad gook almost =
always means bad leaks, which mweans bad deck....
--=20
katysails
s/v Chanteuse
Kirie Elite 32
http://katysails.tripod.com

"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax
and get used to the idea." - Robert A. Heinlein

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:10:34 -0400, something compelled
"katysails" , to say:


There is some ugly goop around all of the
lifeline stanchions

Warning! Warning! Warning! (as the robot said to Will Robinson...) Get a moisture meter if you're not going to get a survey...bad gook almost always means bad leaks, which mweans bad deck....

I've decided to get a survey.

Smart move.

"Steve Daniels, Seek of Spam" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:10:34 -0400, something compelled
"katysails" , to say:


There is some ugly goop around all of the
lifeline stanchions

Warning! Warning! Warning! (as the robot said to Will Robinson...) Get a
moisture meter if you're not going to get a survey...bad gook almost always
means bad leaks, which mweans bad deck....

I've decided to get a survey.

Dumb waste of money!


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message ...
Smart move.

"Steve Daniels, Seek of Spam" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:10:34 -0400, something compelled
"katysails" , to say:


There is some ugly goop around all of the
lifeline stanchions

Warning! Warning! Warning! (as the robot said to Will Robinson...) Get a
moisture meter if you're not going to get a survey...bad gook almost always
means bad leaks, which mweans bad deck....

I've decided to get a survey.

Right up until the surveyor finds something Steve missed,
then it becomes a very smart move indeed.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...


Dumb waste of money!


"Jonathan Ganz" wrote in message
...
Smart move.

"Steve Daniels, Seek of Spam" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 07:10:34 -0400, something compelled
"katysails" , to say:


There is some ugly goop around all of the
lifeline stanchions

Warning! Warning! Warning! (as the robot said to Will Robinson...)
Get a
moisture meter if you're not going to get a survey...bad gook almost
always
means bad leaks, which mweans bad deck....

I've decided to get a survey.