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hk wrote:


I doubt it. I frequently go out on organizing calls with union reps, and
the companies and employees we visit are not members of unions.

I hate labor unions. Always have.

Twenty-two years ago my father worked nights in a clutch factory, having
worked his way up over the years from machinist to foreman. The original
owner sold to a larger corporation, and after a while it became time to
negotiate a new contract. The factory had been breaking even or even
losing money on heavy-duty clutches, and the company wanted to start
making light-duty ones where there was more demand. They even went so
far as to move in equipment to start making them.

Even with the new product line, the company would still lose money if
they couldn't cut costs. During the negotiations they said they needed
the workers to take a small pay cut. The union, of course, wouldn't
stand for it. Eventually, the company gave them a take-it-or-leave-it
choice: Take a pay cut or we'll close the plant - and they offered a
severance package if the plant closed. Well, with severance dollar signs
in their eyes, they voted to close the plant. My father, who couldn't
even vote on it because he was a foreman, found himself out of a job at
age 60.

Just try to find a job at 60. It ain't easy to find a job at any age,
much less when you're so near retirement. He lived on unemployment
insurance for a year, then another year on the severance package, and
started collecting Social Security at 62, three years before he planned
to. The depression might have killed him had we not been around to help
him through it. He was never the same again.

The labor union members that decided to throw away their jobs did that
to him. I hate labor unions. Always will.

TJ

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"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
t...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:00:31 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


But, I read. I agree, years ago it was easy and "safe" to hire
illegals. Laws with substantial penalties have been put in place to
discourage that practice however and they are enforced.

Eisboch

Perhaps in your business, but in many sectors, construction for instance,
there is a large "underground" economy. Not only are illegals hired, but
many citizens are paid under the table. Estimates of illegal immigrants
are 10-15 million. They are coming here to make a living. Somebody is
hiring them.


I realize that and have witnessed it. But, they are not typically
"corporations". They are often small time construction or landscaper type
businesses that simply don't show up on the radar screen.

Eisboch


Corporations do hire them. They look at the required documentation and hire
them. The government may come back a year later and say the SS number is
bogus, but there is no way to run legal quick check on an employee's
documentation.

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"Calif Bill" wrote in message
m...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
t...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:00:31 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


But, I read. I agree, years ago it was easy and "safe" to hire
illegals. Laws with substantial penalties have been put in place to
discourage that practice however and they are enforced.

Eisboch

Perhaps in your business, but in many sectors, construction for
instance,
there is a large "underground" economy. Not only are illegals hired,
but
many citizens are paid under the table. Estimates of illegal immigrants
are 10-15 million. They are coming here to make a living. Somebody is
hiring them.


I realize that and have witnessed it. But, they are not typically
"corporations". They are often small time construction or landscaper
type businesses that simply don't show up on the radar screen.

Eisboch


Corporations do hire them. They look at the required documentation and
hire them. The government may come back a year later and say the SS
number is bogus, but there is no way to run legal quick check on an
employee's documentation.


I think the Duck correctly pointed out the error of my initial statement
whereby I left out the word "knowingly".

Eisboch

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On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:23:15 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
om...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
t...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:00:31 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


But, I read. I agree, years ago it was easy and "safe" to hire
illegals. Laws with substantial penalties have been put in place to
discourage that practice however and they are enforced.

Eisboch

Perhaps in your business, but in many sectors, construction for
instance,
there is a large "underground" economy. Not only are illegals hired,
but
many citizens are paid under the table. Estimates of illegal immigrants
are 10-15 million. They are coming here to make a living. Somebody is
hiring them.


I realize that and have witnessed it. But, they are not typically
"corporations". They are often small time construction or landscaper
type businesses that simply don't show up on the radar screen.

Corporations do hire them. They look at the required documentation and
hire them. The government may come back a year later and say the SS
number is bogus, but there is no way to run legal quick check on an
employee's documentation.

I think the Duck correctly pointed out the error of my initial statement
whereby I left out the word "knowingly".

Yes, but did you knowingly know it?

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"Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:23:15 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news:S66dnexfQf60wjPVnZ2dnUVZ_trinZ2d@earthlink. com...

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
t...
On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:00:31 -0400, Eisboch wrote:


But, I read. I agree, years ago it was easy and "safe" to hire
illegals. Laws with substantial penalties have been put in place to
discourage that practice however and they are enforced.

Eisboch

Perhaps in your business, but in many sectors, construction for
instance,
there is a large "underground" economy. Not only are illegals hired,
but
many citizens are paid under the table. Estimates of illegal
immigrants
are 10-15 million. They are coming here to make a living. Somebody
is
hiring them.


I realize that and have witnessed it. But, they are not typically
"corporations". They are often small time construction or landscaper
type businesses that simply don't show up on the radar screen.

Corporations do hire them. They look at the required documentation and
hire them. The government may come back a year later and say the SS
number is bogus, but there is no way to run legal quick check on an
employee's documentation.

I think the Duck correctly pointed out the error of my initial statement
whereby I left out the word "knowingly".

Yes, but did you knowingly know it?

No. But now I know I knowingly didn't know it.

Eisboch

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"Eisboch" wrote in message
...

"hk" wrote in message
. ..
Eisboch wrote:
"hk" wrote in message
...

The company would have been wiped out if a few guys left for better
wages?

snerk

The "few" guys would represent half of the welding/fabrication shop.
We only had about 45 employees total at the time and that included
management, administrative, engineering, design, electrical, controls
and machinists.

Eisboch


Well, that's a management problem, right?

I mean, if American corporations are free to dive to the bottom in terms
of layoffs, pay reductions, and benefit cuts, employees should be free to
jump with their feet.


Good grief. Our guys booted them out the door. Don't you get it?



He will never get it. He's been brainwashed. Can't you tell? Talk to any
union lemming and you will hear the EXACT SAME sound bytes.

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With all due respect, and I mean it, You are blind Dick.. It only
works for you and shortpants.. I have tried it, even got to the point
where we exchanged persoanal info. It doesn't work for anybody else..
You are a smart guy, why can't you listen to several of us here who
have pointed out your immunity? I just don't get it..

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:23:18 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:


wrote in message
...
On Aug 21, 12:37 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"hk" wrote in message

. ..



BTW, you are projecting your experience and not considering everyone
else's. I've worked with and for unions since 1971, I think, and have
been
out on dozens and dozens of organizing drives, and been involved in
campaigns that lasted days, weeks, months, and in one case, more than a
year. All manner of employees, too...white collar, blue collar and
mixed,
and not easy work in the sort of anti-worker, anti-union country this
is.

Well, if nothing else, this little exchange has been enlightening. I can
see now where and how many of your beliefs and opinions come from. With
all due respect (and I mean that) I think your experiences has resulted in
a bit of narrow mindedness.

Unions aren't for everybody. In fact, they aren't for most.

Eisboch

But you've got to understand, if Harry thinks they are good, then that
means they are good for everyone, and everyone better damned well get
with the program, just ask him. If you don't agree with him 100%,
he'll start calling you names and telling lies about you.
----------------------------------------------

Doubtful. Harry gives me the same respect I give him. Maybe sometimes a
little more.
Try it sometime. It works.

Eisboch

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SmallBoats.com wrote:
With all due respect, and I mean it, You are blind Dick.. It only
works for you and shortpants.. I have tried it, even got to the point
where we exchanged persoanal info. It doesn't work for anybody else..
You are a smart guy, why can't you listen to several of us here who
have pointed out your immunity? I just don't get it..

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:23:18 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Aug 21, 12:37 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"hk" wrote in message

. ..



BTW, you are projecting your experience and not considering everyone
else's. I've worked with and for unions since 1971, I think, and have
been
out on dozens and dozens of organizing drives, and been involved in
campaigns that lasted days, weeks, months, and in one case, more than a
year. All manner of employees, too...white collar, blue collar and
mixed,
and not easy work in the sort of anti-worker, anti-union country this
is.
Well, if nothing else, this little exchange has been enlightening. I can
see now where and how many of your beliefs and opinions come from. With
all due respect (and I mean that) I think your experiences has resulted in
a bit of narrow mindedness.

Unions aren't for everybody. In fact, they aren't for most.

Eisboch
But you've got to understand, if Harry thinks they are good, then that
means they are good for everyone, and everyone better damned well get
with the program, just ask him. If you don't agree with him 100%,
he'll start calling you names and telling lies about you.
----------------------------------------------

Doubtful. Harry gives me the same respect I give him. Maybe sometimes a
little more.
Try it sometime. It works.

Eisboch



I'll make you a deal, Scott. You behave as Eisboch typically does here,
and not in your usual ignorant asshole way, and I'll give you the same
respect I give Eisboch.

Richard and I don't agree on a lot of things, especially things
political, but I don't call him names.

Figured it out?

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On Aug 22, 10:35*am, hk wrote:
SmallBoats.com wrote:
With all due respect, and I mean it, You are blind Dick.. It only
works for you and shortpants.. I have tried it, even got to the point
where we exchanged persoanal info. It doesn't work for anybody else..
You are a smart guy, why can't you listen to several of us here who
have pointed out your immunity? I just don't get it..

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:23:18 -0400, "Eisboch" wrote:

wrote in message
....
On Aug 21, 12:37 pm, "Eisboch" wrote:
"hk" wrote in message

om...

BTW, you are projecting your experience and not considering everyone
else's. I've worked with and for unions since 1971, I think, and have
been
out on dozens and dozens of organizing drives, and been involved in
campaigns that lasted days, weeks, months, and in one case, more than a
year. All manner of employees, too...white collar, blue collar and
mixed,
and not easy work in the sort of anti-worker, anti-union country this
is.
Well, if nothing else, this little exchange has been enlightening. I can
see now where and how many of your beliefs and opinions come from. With
all due respect (and I mean that) I think your experiences has resulted in
a bit of narrow mindedness.

Unions aren't for everybody. In fact, they aren't for most.

Eisboch
But you've got to understand, if Harry thinks they are good, then that
means they are good for everyone, and everyone better damned well get
with the program, just ask him. If you don't agree with him 100%,
he'll start calling you names and telling lies about you.
----------------------------------------------

Doubtful. *Harry gives me the same respect I give him. *Maybe sometimes a
little more.
Try it sometime. *It works.

Eisboch

I'll make you a deal, Scott. You behave as Eisboch typically does here,
and not in your usual ignorant asshole way, and I'll give you the same
respect I give Eisboch.

Richard and I don't agree on a lot of things, especially things
political, but I don't call him names.

Figured it out?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nonsense, read your own proposal here. If I were to accept, I have to
subscribe to your premise that I am an "ignorat asshole" for being
honest and telling true stories.. While you sit here spewing your
constant bull****. Your value system and judgement are ****ed, I am
not going to even try to subscribe to this weeks version of civil..
You kiss the asses of those who enable you, and no one else.. Period.
If I make a post not involving you at all, say about boats, you post
"crappy little boat" threads.. If I tell a true story of hate and
intimidation at the union shop, you call me an idiot, liar, and of
course worse.. You have never meant or kept a deal here, why would
anybody trust you to start now? A couple of posters here that you
don't attack seem to be ok with it, I don't believe they don't see it
however...

For TJ: Health Care Proposals