in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:00 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the artificiality
of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the way the boat
responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the bow try to turn
into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris Duff)
did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany Explorer. For the
circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the British Isle and the northeast
US (starting in NY, going down the coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri
rivers, through the great lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to
NYC) he was paddling a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to
be a couple of the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was
equipped with a rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering
difficult conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic
Tides" and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of the
best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he would ever
develop enough skills to handle conditions that would severly limit his
ability to maintain a desired course.

Well if you think a rudder is going to save you from a tsunami, you are
dreaming. Whatever these conditions would be that it was impossible for an
expert to paddle, I'd say the rudder isn't going to be the lifesaving
difference. And I would have to say manipulating a rudder would be the last
thing on your mind when trying to maintain a brace against whatever hellish
nightmare you were encountering.

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is
the chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a
point which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an
offshore wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased
skill level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might
be better served if some of your training time was spent paddling
with a rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the
assumption that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill
level potentially getting into conditions that limit their ability to
control their course effectively based on conversations with paddlers
that have undertaken circumnaviagations around large islands (the
south island of New Zealand, for example). In that case, the paddler
assessed his own skill level to the point that he would remain
landbound for days at a time, and on days that he did paddle found
himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider him to be
one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own
skill level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive
credentials (up to a BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him
and echoed similar praise regarding his skill. However, apparently he
seems to have a more conservative assessment of his skill level than
you do.

You are operating on the assumption that the use of a rudder on a kayak
is an aid to effective paddling.

It certainly wouldn't be if you paddled a boat with rudder but never
practiced paddling with it deployed. I believe that it would most
definitely be an aid to mitigate weather cocking even if it was dropped
straight down and not used for steering. Just having it dropped is going to
reduce the effect of wind blowing on the stern.

That being said, I don't think the original discussion about rudders
related to circumnavigations around large islands in the ocean.

The original discussion became irrelvant when you stated that you couldn't
see a reason for ever using a rudder. I, and others (for example, towing
someone out of a dangerous area when there is a heavy wind) are merely
providing examples which challenge your contention.

In any case, I am not claiming that a circumnavigation of large island in
the ocean is the only case where a rudder might be useful. Paul Caffyn
offers several other reasons he http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/caffyn.htm

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:16 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is
the chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a
point which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an
offshore wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased
skill level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might
be better served if some of your training time was spent paddling
with a rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the
assumption that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill
level potentially getting into conditions that limit their ability to
control their course effectively based on conversations with paddlers
that have undertaken circumnaviagations around large islands (the
south island of New Zealand, for example). In that case, the paddler
assessed his own skill level to the point that he would remain
landbound for days at a time, and on days that he did paddle found
himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider him to be
one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own
skill level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive
credentials (up to a BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him
and echoed similar praise regarding his skill. However, apparently he
seems to have a more conservative assessment of his skill level than
you do.

You are operating on the assumption that the use of a rudder on a kayak
is an aid to effective paddling.

It certainly wouldn't be if you paddled a boat with rudder but never
practiced paddling with it deployed. I believe that it would most
definitely be an aid to mitigate weather cocking even if it was dropped
straight down and not used for steering. Just having it dropped is going to
reduce the effect of wind blowing on the stern.

That being said, I don't think the original discussion about rudders
related to circumnavigations around large islands in the ocean.

The original discussion became irrelvant when you stated that you couldn't
see a reason for ever using a rudder.

Well, I can see the reason - someone who for whatever reason doesn't want to
steer with their paddle and their body.

I, and others (for example, towing
someone out of a dangerous area when there is a heavy wind) are merely
providing examples which challenge your contention.

Yes, but the challenge is ineffective thus far.

In any case, I am not claiming that a circumnavigation of large island in
the ocean is the only case where a rudder might be useful. Paul Caffyn
offers several other reasons he http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/caffyn.htm

Mm. Reading that I can't figure out why he hasn't strapped a motor on the
back!

I could throw back a thousand links explaining why a rudder is not necessary
to effective and efficient paddling.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.
==============

This is beginning to sound like a religious debate; with no
"resolution" in sight.

I spend a lot of time lurking on cycling NGs. This is probably kayaking's
answer to the "helmet wars" of rec.bicycling.misc

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:00 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the
artificiality of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the
way the boat responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the
bow try to turn into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris
Duff) did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany
Explorer. For the circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the
British Isle and the northeast US (starting in NY, going down the
coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, through the great
lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to NYC) he was paddling
a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to be a couple of
the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was equipped with a
rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering difficult
conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic Tides"
and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of
the best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he
would ever develop enough skills to handle conditions that would
severly limit his ability to maintain a desired course.

Well if you think a rudder is going to save you from a tsunami, you are
dreaming.

Shows how much you know about waves. A tsunami, while very large has a very
long period. Encountering on open seas is likely going to be easier than
handling a 10' breaking wave in a tidal race. In any case, I'm not claiming
that it would save someones life under any conditions.

Whatever these conditions would be that it was impossible for
an expert to paddle, I'd say the rudder isn't going to be the
lifesaving difference.

Paul Caffyn claims otherwise and anyone that knows who he is and his
accomplishments would certainly classify him as an expert paddler.

And I would have to say manipulating a rudder
would be the last thing on your mind when trying to maintain a brace
against whatever hellish nightmare you were encountering.

Maintaining a brace whether you're using a rudder or not isn't going to get
you out of hellish conditions. It's just going to prevent you from
capsizing in hellish conditions. The types of conditions I'm talking about
might involve wind, a tidal race/currents, or rocks, but not necessary large
waves. It might just be a matter of being able to maintain a course for a
long distance because there isn't anyplace to land.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/23/05 6:32 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:00 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the
artificiality of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the
way the boat responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the
bow try to turn into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris
Duff) did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany
Explorer. For the circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the
British Isle and the northeast US (starting in NY, going down the
coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, through the great
lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to NYC) he was paddling
a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to be a couple of
the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was equipped with a
rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering difficult
conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic Tides"
and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of
the best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he
would ever develop enough skills to handle conditions that would
severly limit his ability to maintain a desired course.

Well if you think a rudder is going to save you from a tsunami, you are
dreaming.

Shows how much you know about waves.

My dad us bigger than your dad.

A tsunami, while very large has a very
long period.

Mhm.

Encountering on open seas is likely going to be easier than
handling a 10' breaking wave in a tidal race.

Having a rudder still ain't gonna make a difference.

In any case, I'm not claiming
that it would save someones life under any conditions.

It's not going to save you under and conditions. If you can't paddle well
enough not to require a rudder to get where you are going in the first
place, the rudder isn't going to turn you into Superman when nasty
conditions come along.

Whatever these conditions would be that it was impossible for
an expert to paddle, I'd say the rudder isn't going to be the
lifesaving difference.

Paul Caffyn claims otherwise and anyone that knows who he is and his
accomplishments would certainly classify him as an expert paddler.

I think it's quite possible you are in love with Paul. He seems awfully
important to you! I, however, remain unimpressed that this particular fellow
enjoys using a rudder. It remains a fact that a rudder is unecessary to
accurate and efficient paddling.

And I would have to say manipulating a rudder
would be the last thing on your mind when trying to maintain a brace
against whatever hellish nightmare you were encountering.

Maintaining a brace whether you're using a rudder or not isn't going to get
you out of hellish conditions. It's just going to prevent you from
capsizing in hellish conditions.

Um. OK. But surviving hellish conditions is a lot easier when you aren't
rolling over like a chicken on a rotisserie, right?

The types of conditions I'm talking about
might involve wind, a tidal race/currents, or rocks, but not necessary large
waves. It might just be a matter of being able to maintain a course for a
long distance because there isn't anyplace to land.

Just paddle straight using your body and, uh, paddle. Having a rudder is not
necessary for accurate and efficient paddling.

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL

in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 11:00 AM:

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

Well, I ain't no Paul Caffyn. But you don't need to circumnavigate the
freakin' plant to understand that a rudder is a recreational appendage,
unecessary to accurate and efficient paddling.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL

Ah, a simple no would have been sufficient! No need to apologize to me with
regard to your experience level. Thank you for your response. I love this
community!


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 11:00 AM:

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better
judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

Well, I ain't no Paul Caffyn. But you don't need to circumnavigate the
freakin' plant to understand that a rudder is a recreational appendage,
unecessary to accurate and efficient paddling.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you
use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent
example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL

in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 10:24 PM:

Ah, a simple no would have been sufficient! No need to apologize to me with
regard to your experience level. Thank you for your response. I love this
community!

What would have sufficed for you isn't what sufficed for me.





"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 11:00 AM:

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better
judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

Well, I ain't no Paul Caffyn. But you don't need to circumnavigate the
freakin' plant to understand that a rudder is a recreational appendage,
unecessary to accurate and efficient paddling.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you
use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent
example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL