add a rudder to a kayak?
 

Has anyone ever retro-fitted a rudder to a plastic kayak? I've been
plotting how that might be done with the small, plastic kayak I got on
points. It doesn't track at all (which makes it great in a tight slalom
run, but gives my girlfriend fits when she's trying to paddle across
flat water).

I'm not worried about the aesthetics of wires running along the top of
the kayak, if that would make it simpler. Is it possible? Is it a LOT
of work?

Argo
http://greenrealm.blogspot.com

Its work.
The manufacturer may have a kit , otherwise you are in for work.
I would look at making a skeg.
Check out some of the slip over skegs tat are available for the R5 or
Pelanski Spirit and copy them.

i have a necky looksha lv sport that came without a rudder. i used it for
about three months with my friend with a rudder. for my birthday present
that year, my friend bought a rudder kit, and had the kayak shop install it
for me. worth every penny (whatever it cost ... i don't know amount because
it was a gift) ... it makes such a difference! check with your kayak dealer
and see if they can help you.
"Argo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone ever retro-fitted a rudder to a plastic kayak? I've been
plotting how that might be done with the small, plastic kayak I got on
points. It doesn't track at all (which makes it great in a tight slalom
run, but gives my girlfriend fits when she's trying to paddle across
flat water).

I'm not worried about the aesthetics of wires running along the top of
the kayak, if that would make it simpler. Is it possible? Is it a LOT
of work?

Argo
http://greenrealm.blogspot.com

in article , minicooper at
wrote on 9/13/05 8:43 PM:

i have a necky looksha lv sport that came without a rudder. i used it for
about three months with my friend with a rudder. for my birthday present
that year, my friend bought a rudder kit, and had the kayak shop install it
for me. worth every penny (whatever it cost ... i don't know amount because
it was a gift) ... it makes such a difference! check with your kayak dealer
and see if they can help you.

Seems a better idea to try your kayak before you buy and not purchase one
that needs a rudder to track properly.

"Argo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone ever retro-fitted a rudder to a plastic kayak? I've been
plotting how that might be done with the small, plastic kayak I got on
points. It doesn't track at all (which makes it great in a tight slalom
run, but gives my girlfriend fits when she's trying to paddle across
flat water).

I'm not worried about the aesthetics of wires running along the top of
the kayak, if that would make it simpler. Is it possible? Is it a LOT
of work?

Argo
http://greenrealm.blogspot.com

i hope i'm replying to group: of course in retrospect i would have enjoyed
a kayak with a rudder from the beginning. but it cost more, was my first
boat, the kayak dealer said i wouldn't need a rudder in morro bay. my
friend bought his with the rudder. i couldn't keep up. i was more tired
than he. it was more fun when i had a rudder too.
"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , minicooper at
wrote on 9/13/05 8:43 PM:

i have a necky looksha lv sport that came without a rudder. i used it
for
about three months with my friend with a rudder. for my birthday present
that year, my friend bought a rudder kit, and had the kayak shop install
it
for me. worth every penny (whatever it cost ... i don't know amount
because
it was a gift) ... it makes such a difference! check with your kayak
dealer
and see if they can help you.

Seems a better idea to try your kayak before you buy and not purchase one
that needs a rudder to track properly.

"Argo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone ever retro-fitted a rudder to a plastic kayak? I've been
plotting how that might be done with the small, plastic kayak I got on
points. It doesn't track at all (which makes it great in a tight slalom
run, but gives my girlfriend fits when she's trying to paddle across
flat water).

I'm not worried about the aesthetics of wires running along the top of
the kayak, if that would make it simpler. Is it possible? Is it a LOT
of work?

Argo
http://greenrealm.blogspot.com

I mostly teach White Water yakin' but I started out with a touring boat. I
was discouraged from buying a rudder for the first few months, and it made
me a MUCH better paddler, as I would have at first ( as most do ) thought of
it as a "sterring wheel". Once you learned to paddle properly, ANY boat
tracks. The hardest thing to teach a noobie in WW boat is to make it go
straight. And yes, I understand that a rudder can help in windy or cross
current conditions. Guess it depends upon one's sense of instant
gratification and willingness to put time into given activity. Paddle on!
"minicooper" wrote in message
...
i hope i'm replying to group: of course in retrospect i would have
enjoyed
a kayak with a rudder from the beginning. but it cost more, was my first
boat, the kayak dealer said i wouldn't need a rudder in morro bay. my
friend bought his with the rudder. i couldn't keep up. i was more tired
than he. it was more fun when i had a rudder too.
"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , minicooper at
wrote on 9/13/05 8:43 PM:

i have a necky looksha lv sport that came without a rudder. i used it
for
about three months with my friend with a rudder. for my birthday
present
that year, my friend bought a rudder kit, and had the kayak shop
install
it
for me. worth every penny (whatever it cost ... i don't know amount
because
it was a gift) ... it makes such a difference! check with your kayak
dealer
and see if they can help you.

Seems a better idea to try your kayak before you buy and not purchase
one
that needs a rudder to track properly.

"Argo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone ever retro-fitted a rudder to a plastic kayak? I've been
plotting how that might be done with the small, plastic kayak I got on
points. It doesn't track at all (which makes it great in a tight
slalom
run, but gives my girlfriend fits when she's trying to paddle across
flat water).

I'm not worried about the aesthetics of wires running along the top of
the kayak, if that would make it simpler. Is it possible? Is it a LOT
of work?

Argo
http://greenrealm.blogspot.com

in article , minicooper at
wrote on 9/15/05 10:58 PM:

i hope i'm replying to group: of course in retrospect i would have enjoyed
a kayak with a rudder from the beginning. but it cost more, was my first
boat, the kayak dealer said i wouldn't need a rudder in morro bay. my
friend bought his with the rudder. i couldn't keep up. i was more tired
than he. it was more fun when i had a rudder too.

I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , minicooper at
wrote on 9/13/05 8:43 PM:

i have a necky looksha lv sport that came without a rudder. i used it
for
about three months with my friend with a rudder. for my birthday present
that year, my friend bought a rudder kit, and had the kayak shop install
it
for me. worth every penny (whatever it cost ... i don't know amount
because
it was a gift) ... it makes such a difference! check with your kayak
dealer
and see if they can help you.

Seems a better idea to try your kayak before you buy and not purchase one
that needs a rudder to track properly.

"Argo" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone ever retro-fitted a rudder to a plastic kayak? I've been
plotting how that might be done with the small, plastic kayak I got on
points. It doesn't track at all (which makes it great in a tight slalom
run, but gives my girlfriend fits when she's trying to paddle across
flat water).

I'm not worried about the aesthetics of wires running along the top of
the kayak, if that would make it simpler. Is it possible? Is it a LOT
of work?

Argo
http://greenrealm.blogspot.com

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of anti-lock
brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially addressed
to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I don't use it and
have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle on the ocean too. In
squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.






suds

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine
w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here,
on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very
strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out
of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for those I paddle
with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of bad situations.
My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal with. Using my
rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself next to a needy
paddle, and correct my path while towing another boat (or two.) My
rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time
to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one paddler
who has very impressive credentials that can describe a compelling reason
for using a rudder. This particular paddler does hundreds of miles
expeditions every summer and describes days where one might paddle 8-10
hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind. While she has the skills to
paddle under those conditions without a rudder, having one makes the day go
a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy under
certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put themselves in
conditions where a rudder will become really useful but **** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course would
you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a rudder" image?

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.
"Suds" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to
be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but
I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never
to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies
much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily
position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to
look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/18/05 3:53 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine
w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here,
on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very
strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out
of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for those I paddle
with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of bad situations.
My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal with. Using my
rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself next to a needy
paddle, and correct my path while towing another boat (or two.) My
rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time
to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one paddler
who has very impressive credentials that can describe a compelling reason
for using a rudder. This particular paddler does hundreds of miles
expeditions every summer and describes days where one might paddle 8-10
hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind. While she has the skills to
paddle under those conditions without a rudder, having one makes the day go
a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy under
certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put themselves in
conditions where a rudder will become really useful but **** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course would
you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a rudder" image?

It's not about being "macho" at all. I don't find a rudder useful. It's a
distraction from paddling and my focus on my stroke and shifting of my body
weight, and doing everything else you need to do. Rear quartering winds
definitely can produce challenging conditions, but frankly I'd rather be
developing my paddling expertise than my ruddering expertise in dealing with
it.

in article , Grip at
wrote on 9/18/05 8:54 PM:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

Bah. The only necessity I can think of for a rudder was if you had nothing
but one half of a broken paddle and a broken arm and needed the rudder to
keep on course paddling with one hand on one side only. You never know eh?!?

"Suds" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to
be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but
I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never
to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies
much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily
position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to
look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

Wish I'de had a rudder when I had to finish 3 miles of class IV after
breaking my paddle! lol But how to retro fit one onto a play boat?
"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , Grip at
wrote on 9/18/05 8:54 PM:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

Bah. The only necessity I can think of for a rudder was if you had nothing
but one half of a broken paddle and a broken arm and needed the rudder to
keep on course paddling with one hand on one side only. You never know
eh?!?

"Suds" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to
be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it
but
I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that
I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the
rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open
ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While
I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never
to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies
much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily
position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to
look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes then.

Mike

Nah, just flatten the rear end and pop a motor on there! Just seemed he had
the the right answer for the proper "use" of a rudder. I also never use one,
but then I paddle a playboat, creeker, and an XL-13. Tracking schmracking
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes then.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes then.

Mike

LOL

On 20-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Just seemed he had
the the right answer for the proper "use" of a rudder.

True, but a rudder on a kayak makes as much sense as a
rudder on a canoe. Why should one need a rudder and the
other not?

Mariner made kayaks that did not require either rudders
or skegs. The hull was optimized for neutral helm at
typical paddling speeds and would leecock slightly when
paddled slower and weathercock a bit when paddled fast.
The seat was designed to shift fore and aft to adjust the
trim to provide correction.

I've come to the conclusion that rudders are almost completely
superflous. If you're sailing a kayak, they are pretty much
essential, but otherwise they are a crutch for either bad
designers or bad paddlers.

Skegs allow a modicum of adjustment for a hull that is designed
to be rather playful without one, but again they should not be
needed.

Parts break; good design works.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 20-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Just seemed he had
the the right answer for the proper "use" of a rudder.

True, but a rudder on a kayak makes as much sense as a
rudder on a canoe. Why should one need a rudder and the
other not?

Precisely.

Mariner made kayaks that did not require either rudders
or skegs. The hull was optimized for neutral helm at
typical paddling speeds and would leecock slightly when
paddled slower and weathercock a bit when paddled fast.
The seat was designed to shift fore and aft to adjust the
trim to provide correction.

I've come to the conclusion that rudders are almost completely
superflous.

Same here.

If you're sailing a kayak, they are pretty much
essential, but otherwise they are a crutch for either bad
designers or bad paddlers.

Precisely.

Skegs allow a modicum of adjustment for a hull that is designed
to be rather playful without one, but again they should not be
needed.

Right.

Parts break; good design works.

Mike

I've noticed, I think, that some of the kayaks mentioned regarding the want
of a rudder are not badly designed boats.

On 20-Sep-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

I've noticed, I think, that some of the kayaks mentioned regarding the want
of a rudder are not badly designed boats.

Manufacturers put rudders on kayaks because the average buyer has an
expectation of a rudder. The CD Solstice, for example, handles just
fine without a rudder. I paddled one for 5 years and never used the
rudder.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 20-Sep-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

I've noticed, I think, that some of the kayaks mentioned regarding the
want
of a rudder are not badly designed boats.

Manufacturers put rudders on kayaks because the average buyer has an
expectation of a rudder. The CD Solstice, for example, handles just
fine without a rudder. I paddled one for 5 years and never used the
rudder.

Mike

My wife has one, the high volume version. The rudder is in pristine
condition. She's about 120, and not exactly what you would call muscular,
but she's been out with it on the north coast of PEI in riptides and the
whole bit and never used the rudder. I remember when we started out we both
put the rudder down on our rentals and thought it was kind of neat but
quickly decided it slowed us down more than it helped, fooling around with
aiming the rudder instead of just learning to paddle where we wanted to go.
My kayak has a rudder and there's a little piece of bungy-style material
that you can slip over it to keep it in place during travel, etc. I've never
bothered taking it off :-) My Navigator is a bit of a tub, I think, as far
as handling goes, but I wouldn't want to be fussing around with a rudder
when I'm busy dealing with challenging conditions.

Keenan
gokayaking.ca

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/18/05 3:53 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and
accurately. That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just
fine w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out
here, on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells,
and very strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't
paddle out of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for
those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of
bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal
with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself
next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat (or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I
have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's
a question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's
time to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one
paddler who has very impressive credentials that can describe a
compelling reason for using a rudder. This particular paddler does
hundreds of miles expeditions every summer and describes days where
one might paddle 8-10 hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind.
While she has the skills to paddle under those conditions without a
rudder, having one makes the day go a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy
under certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put
themselves in conditions where a rudder will become really useful but
**** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course
would you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a
rudder" image?

It's not about being "macho" at all. I don't find a rudder useful. It's
a distraction from paddling and my focus on my stroke and shifting of
my body weight, and doing everything else you need to do. Rear
quartering winds definitely can produce challenging conditions, but
frankly I'd rather be developing my paddling expertise than myCCCGBBL
ruddering expertise in dealing with it.

No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the chance
you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point which
overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore wind becomes
strong enough such that despite your increased skill level you're unable to
steer toward a safe landing you might be better served if some of your
training time was spent paddling with a rudder.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/18/05 3:53 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and
accurately. That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just
fine w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out
here, on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells,
and very strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't
paddle out of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for
those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of
bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal
with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself
next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat (or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I
have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's
a question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's
time to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one
paddler who has very impressive credentials that can describe a
compelling reason for using a rudder. This particular paddler does
hundreds of miles expeditions every summer and describes days where
one might paddle 8-10 hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind.
While she has the skills to paddle under those conditions without a
rudder, having one makes the day go a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy
under certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put
themselves in conditions where a rudder will become really useful but
**** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course
would you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a
rudder" image?

It's not about being "macho" at all. I don't find a rudder useful. It's
a distraction from paddling and my focus on my stroke and shifting of
my body weight, and doing everything else you need to do. Rear
quartering winds definitely can produce challenging conditions, but
frankly I'd rather be developing my paddling expertise than myCCCGBBL
ruddering expertise in dealing with it.

No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance
you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point which
overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore wind becomes
strong enough such that despite your increased skill level you're unable
to
steer toward a safe landing you might be better served if some of your
training time was spent paddling with a rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point
which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore
wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased skill
level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might be
better served if some of your training time was spent paddling with a
rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the assumption
that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill level potentially
getting into conditions that limit their ability to control their course
effectively based on conversations with paddlers that have undertaken
circumnaviagations around large islands (the south island of New Zealand,
for example). In that case, the paddler assessed his own skill level to the
point that he would remain landbound for days at a time, and on days that he
did paddle found himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider
him to be one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own skill
level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive credentials (up to a
BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him and echoed similar praise
regarding his skill. However, apparently he seems to have a more
conservative assessment of his skill level than you do.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point
which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore
wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased skill
level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might be
better served if some of your training time was spent paddling with a
rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the assumption
that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill level potentially
getting into conditions that limit their ability to control their course
effectively based on conversations with paddlers that have undertaken
circumnaviagations around large islands (the south island of New Zealand,
for example). In that case, the paddler assessed his own skill level to the
point that he would remain landbound for days at a time, and on days that he
did paddle found himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider
him to be one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own skill
level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive credentials (up to a
BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him and echoed similar praise
regarding his skill. However, apparently he seems to have a more
conservative assessment of his skill level than you do.

You are operating on the assumption that the use of a rudder on a kayak is
an aid to effective paddling.

That being said, I don't think the original discussion about rudders related
to circumnavigations around large islands in the ocean.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point
which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore
wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased skill
level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might be
better served if some of your training time was spent paddling with a
rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the assumption
that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill level potentially
getting into conditions that limit their ability to control their course
effectively based on conversations with paddlers that have undertaken
circumnaviagations around large islands (the south island of New Zealand,
for example). In that case, the paddler assessed his own skill level to the
point that he would remain landbound for days at a time, and on days that he
did paddle found himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider
him to be one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own skill
level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive credentials (up to a
BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him and echoed similar praise
regarding his skill. However, apparently he seems to have a more
conservative assessment of his skill level than you do.

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the artificiality of a
rudder to compensate for steering problems is the way the boat responds to
difficult conditions. For example, does the bow try to turn into the wind,
or does it blow downwind? In difficult conditions my kayak weatherkocks
rather than broaches (hope I got those terms right, I used don't talk about
this sort of stuff, so please feel free to correct/insult if I am wrong
there) and weathercocking characteristics are not as challenging as trying
to turn a boat that is getting blown downwind.

KMAN says:
================
Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.
==============

This is beginning to sound like a religious debate; with no
"resolution" in sight. KMAN didn't like the anti-lock brake comparison.
Well, the comparison that came to my mind was those car enthusiasts who
insist that driving an automatic just isn't really driving.

Nonsense. Or automatic cameras don't amount to photography. Nonsense
again.

Rudders are neither good nor bad: they're just rudders. Use 'em if you
want to; or don't.

Silly discussion!
++++++++++++++++

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN says:
================
Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.
==============

This is beginning to sound like a religious debate; with no
"resolution" in sight. KMAN didn't like the anti-lock brake comparison.
Well, the comparison that came to my mind was those car enthusiasts who
insist that driving an automatic just isn't really driving.

You can, however, drive a car in a straight line regardless of transmission.

Or automatic cameras don't amount to photography.

You can, however, take a photograph in a straight line regardless of auto or
manual focus.

Rudders are neither good nor bad: they're just rudders. Use 'em if you
want to; or don't.

Silly discussion!

They definitely aren't good or bad. But a rudder is not required to paddle a
kayak efficiently and accurately.

On 22-Sep-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Rudders are neither good nor bad: they're just rudders.

Rudders are bad if they are used to compensate for a poorly designed
kayak. A rudder on a properly designed kayak is a tool.

There are also badly designed rudder systems. Sliding pedal systems
suck, since they don't allow for solid bracing. Some rudders are
mechanical nightmares and are more prone to failure. Some rudders
are properly shaped and others are slabs of aluminum or plastic.
Rudders can be more of a headache than they're worth if they are not
designed and made well.

Mike

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the artificiality
of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the way the boat
responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the bow try to turn
into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris Duff)
did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany Explorer. For the
circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the British Isle and the northeast
US (starting in NY, going down the coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri
rivers, through the great lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to
NYC) he was paddling a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to
be a couple of the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was
equipped with a rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering
difficult conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic
Tides" and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of the
best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he would ever
develop enough skills to handle conditions that would severly limit his
ability to maintain a desired course.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:00 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the artificiality
of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the way the boat
responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the bow try to turn
into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris Duff)
did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany Explorer. For the
circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the British Isle and the northeast
US (starting in NY, going down the coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri
rivers, through the great lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to
NYC) he was paddling a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to
be a couple of the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was
equipped with a rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering
difficult conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic
Tides" and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of the
best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he would ever
develop enough skills to handle conditions that would severly limit his
ability to maintain a desired course.

Well if you think a rudder is going to save you from a tsunami, you are
dreaming. Whatever these conditions would be that it was impossible for an
expert to paddle, I'd say the rudder isn't going to be the lifesaving
difference. And I would have to say manipulating a rudder would be the last
thing on your mind when trying to maintain a brace against whatever hellish
nightmare you were encountering.

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is
the chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a
point which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an
offshore wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased
skill level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might
be better served if some of your training time was spent paddling
with a rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the
assumption that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill
level potentially getting into conditions that limit their ability to
control their course effectively based on conversations with paddlers
that have undertaken circumnaviagations around large islands (the
south island of New Zealand, for example). In that case, the paddler
assessed his own skill level to the point that he would remain
landbound for days at a time, and on days that he did paddle found
himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider him to be
one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own
skill level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive
credentials (up to a BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him
and echoed similar praise regarding his skill. However, apparently he
seems to have a more conservative assessment of his skill level than
you do.

You are operating on the assumption that the use of a rudder on a kayak
is an aid to effective paddling.

It certainly wouldn't be if you paddled a boat with rudder but never
practiced paddling with it deployed. I believe that it would most
definitely be an aid to mitigate weather cocking even if it was dropped
straight down and not used for steering. Just having it dropped is going to
reduce the effect of wind blowing on the stern.

That being said, I don't think the original discussion about rudders
related to circumnavigations around large islands in the ocean.

The original discussion became irrelvant when you stated that you couldn't
see a reason for ever using a rudder. I, and others (for example, towing
someone out of a dangerous area when there is a heavy wind) are merely
providing examples which challenge your contention.

In any case, I am not claiming that a circumnavigation of large island in
the ocean is the only case where a rudder might be useful. Paul Caffyn
offers several other reasons he http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/caffyn.htm

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:16 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is
the chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a
point which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an
offshore wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased
skill level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might
be better served if some of your training time was spent paddling
with a rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the
assumption that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill
level potentially getting into conditions that limit their ability to
control their course effectively based on conversations with paddlers
that have undertaken circumnaviagations around large islands (the
south island of New Zealand, for example). In that case, the paddler
assessed his own skill level to the point that he would remain
landbound for days at a time, and on days that he did paddle found
himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider him to be
one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own
skill level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive
credentials (up to a BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him
and echoed similar praise regarding his skill. However, apparently he
seems to have a more conservative assessment of his skill level than
you do.

You are operating on the assumption that the use of a rudder on a kayak
is an aid to effective paddling.

It certainly wouldn't be if you paddled a boat with rudder but never
practiced paddling with it deployed. I believe that it would most
definitely be an aid to mitigate weather cocking even if it was dropped
straight down and not used for steering. Just having it dropped is going to
reduce the effect of wind blowing on the stern.

That being said, I don't think the original discussion about rudders
related to circumnavigations around large islands in the ocean.

The original discussion became irrelvant when you stated that you couldn't
see a reason for ever using a rudder.

Well, I can see the reason - someone who for whatever reason doesn't want to
steer with their paddle and their body.

I, and others (for example, towing
someone out of a dangerous area when there is a heavy wind) are merely
providing examples which challenge your contention.

Yes, but the challenge is ineffective thus far.

In any case, I am not claiming that a circumnavigation of large island in
the ocean is the only case where a rudder might be useful. Paul Caffyn
offers several other reasons he http://www.sissonkayaks.co.nz/caffyn.htm

Mm. Reading that I can't figure out why he hasn't strapped a motor on the
back!

I could throw back a thousand links explaining why a rudder is not necessary
to effective and efficient paddling.

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.
==============

This is beginning to sound like a religious debate; with no
"resolution" in sight.

I spend a lot of time lurking on cycling NGs. This is probably kayaking's
answer to the "helmet wars" of rec.bicycling.misc

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:00 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the
artificiality of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the
way the boat responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the
bow try to turn into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris
Duff) did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany
Explorer. For the circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the
British Isle and the northeast US (starting in NY, going down the
coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, through the great
lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to NYC) he was paddling
a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to be a couple of
the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was equipped with a
rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering difficult
conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic Tides"
and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of
the best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he
would ever develop enough skills to handle conditions that would
severly limit his ability to maintain a desired course.

Well if you think a rudder is going to save you from a tsunami, you are
dreaming.

Shows how much you know about waves. A tsunami, while very large has a very
long period. Encountering on open seas is likely going to be easier than
handling a 10' breaking wave in a tidal race. In any case, I'm not claiming
that it would save someones life under any conditions.

Whatever these conditions would be that it was impossible for
an expert to paddle, I'd say the rudder isn't going to be the
lifesaving difference.

Paul Caffyn claims otherwise and anyone that knows who he is and his
accomplishments would certainly classify him as an expert paddler.

And I would have to say manipulating a rudder
would be the last thing on your mind when trying to maintain a brace
against whatever hellish nightmare you were encountering.

Maintaining a brace whether you're using a rudder or not isn't going to get
you out of hellish conditions. It's just going to prevent you from
capsizing in hellish conditions. The types of conditions I'm talking about
might involve wind, a tidal race/currents, or rocks, but not necessary large
waves. It might just be a matter of being able to maintain a course for a
long distance because there isn't anyplace to land.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/23/05 6:32 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/22/05 7:00 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the
artificiality of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the
way the boat responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the
bow try to turn into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris
Duff) did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany
Explorer. For the circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the
British Isle and the northeast US (starting in NY, going down the
coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, through the great
lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to NYC) he was paddling
a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to be a couple of
the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was equipped with a
rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering difficult
conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic Tides"
and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of
the best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he
would ever develop enough skills to handle conditions that would
severly limit his ability to maintain a desired course.

Well if you think a rudder is going to save you from a tsunami, you are
dreaming.

Shows how much you know about waves.

My dad us bigger than your dad.

A tsunami, while very large has a very
long period.

Mhm.

Encountering on open seas is likely going to be easier than
handling a 10' breaking wave in a tidal race.

Having a rudder still ain't gonna make a difference.

In any case, I'm not claiming
that it would save someones life under any conditions.

It's not going to save you under and conditions. If you can't paddle well
enough not to require a rudder to get where you are going in the first
place, the rudder isn't going to turn you into Superman when nasty
conditions come along.

Whatever these conditions would be that it was impossible for
an expert to paddle, I'd say the rudder isn't going to be the
lifesaving difference.

Paul Caffyn claims otherwise and anyone that knows who he is and his
accomplishments would certainly classify him as an expert paddler.

I think it's quite possible you are in love with Paul. He seems awfully
important to you! I, however, remain unimpressed that this particular fellow
enjoys using a rudder. It remains a fact that a rudder is unecessary to
accurate and efficient paddling.

And I would have to say manipulating a rudder
would be the last thing on your mind when trying to maintain a brace
against whatever hellish nightmare you were encountering.

Maintaining a brace whether you're using a rudder or not isn't going to get
you out of hellish conditions. It's just going to prevent you from
capsizing in hellish conditions.

Um. OK. But surviving hellish conditions is a lot easier when you aren't
rolling over like a chicken on a rotisserie, right?

The types of conditions I'm talking about
might involve wind, a tidal race/currents, or rocks, but not necessary large
waves. It might just be a matter of being able to maintain a course for a
long distance because there isn't anyplace to land.

Just paddle straight using your body and, uh, paddle. Having a rudder is not
necessary for accurate and efficient paddling.

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL

in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 11:00 AM:

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

Well, I ain't no Paul Caffyn. But you don't need to circumnavigate the
freakin' plant to understand that a rudder is a recreational appendage,
unecessary to accurate and efficient paddling.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL

Ah, a simple no would have been sufficient! No need to apologize to me with
regard to your experience level. Thank you for your response. I love this
community!


"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 11:00 AM:

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better
judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

Well, I ain't no Paul Caffyn. But you don't need to circumnavigate the
freakin' plant to understand that a rudder is a recreational appendage,
unecessary to accurate and efficient paddling.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you
use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent
example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL

in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 10:24 PM:

Ah, a simple no would have been sufficient! No need to apologize to me with
regard to your experience level. Thank you for your response. I love this
community!

What would have sufficed for you isn't what sufficed for me.





"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , bits at
wrote on 9/24/05 11:00 AM:

KMAN would you be open to sharing your kayaking resume so I can better
judge
how to process you input and comments on this thread?

Well, I ain't no Paul Caffyn. But you don't need to circumnavigate the
freakin' plant to understand that a rudder is a recreational appendage,
unecessary to accurate and efficient paddling.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you
use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent
example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes
then.

Mike

LOL