"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 20-Sep-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

I've noticed, I think, that some of the kayaks mentioned regarding the
want
of a rudder are not badly designed boats.

Manufacturers put rudders on kayaks because the average buyer has an
expectation of a rudder. The CD Solstice, for example, handles just
fine without a rudder. I paddled one for 5 years and never used the
rudder.

Mike

My wife has one, the high volume version. The rudder is in pristine
condition. She's about 120, and not exactly what you would call muscular,
but she's been out with it on the north coast of PEI in riptides and the
whole bit and never used the rudder. I remember when we started out we both
put the rudder down on our rentals and thought it was kind of neat but
quickly decided it slowed us down more than it helped, fooling around with
aiming the rudder instead of just learning to paddle where we wanted to go.
My kayak has a rudder and there's a little piece of bungy-style material
that you can slip over it to keep it in place during travel, etc. I've never
bothered taking it off :-) My Navigator is a bit of a tub, I think, as far
as handling goes, but I wouldn't want to be fussing around with a rudder
when I'm busy dealing with challenging conditions.

Keenan
gokayaking.ca

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/18/05 3:53 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and
accurately. That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just
fine w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out
here, on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells,
and very strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't
paddle out of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for
those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of
bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal
with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself
next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat (or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I
have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's
a question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's
time to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one
paddler who has very impressive credentials that can describe a
compelling reason for using a rudder. This particular paddler does
hundreds of miles expeditions every summer and describes days where
one might paddle 8-10 hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind.
While she has the skills to paddle under those conditions without a
rudder, having one makes the day go a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy
under certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put
themselves in conditions where a rudder will become really useful but
**** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course
would you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a
rudder" image?

It's not about being "macho" at all. I don't find a rudder useful. It's
a distraction from paddling and my focus on my stroke and shifting of
my body weight, and doing everything else you need to do. Rear
quartering winds definitely can produce challenging conditions, but
frankly I'd rather be developing my paddling expertise than myCCCGBBL
ruddering expertise in dealing with it.

No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the chance
you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point which
overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore wind becomes
strong enough such that despite your increased skill level you're unable to
steer toward a safe landing you might be better served if some of your
training time was spent paddling with a rudder.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .
KMAN wrote in
:

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/18/05 3:53 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and
accurately. That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just
fine w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out
here, on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells,
and very strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't
paddle out of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for
those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of
bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal
with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself
next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat (or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I
have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's
a question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's
time to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one
paddler who has very impressive credentials that can describe a
compelling reason for using a rudder. This particular paddler does
hundreds of miles expeditions every summer and describes days where
one might paddle 8-10 hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind.
While she has the skills to paddle under those conditions without a
rudder, having one makes the day go a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy
under certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put
themselves in conditions where a rudder will become really useful but
**** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course
would you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a
rudder" image?

It's not about being "macho" at all. I don't find a rudder useful. It's
a distraction from paddling and my focus on my stroke and shifting of
my body weight, and doing everything else you need to do. Rear
quartering winds definitely can produce challenging conditions, but
frankly I'd rather be developing my paddling expertise than myCCCGBBL
ruddering expertise in dealing with it.

No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance
you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point which
overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore wind becomes
strong enough such that despite your increased skill level you're unable
to
steer toward a safe landing you might be better served if some of your
training time was spent paddling with a rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point
which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore
wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased skill
level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might be
better served if some of your training time was spent paddling with a
rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the assumption
that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill level potentially
getting into conditions that limit their ability to control their course
effectively based on conversations with paddlers that have undertaken
circumnaviagations around large islands (the south island of New Zealand,
for example). In that case, the paddler assessed his own skill level to the
point that he would remain landbound for days at a time, and on days that he
did paddle found himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider
him to be one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own skill
level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive credentials (up to a
BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him and echoed similar praise
regarding his skill. However, apparently he seems to have a more
conservative assessment of his skill level than you do.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point
which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore
wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased skill
level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might be
better served if some of your training time was spent paddling with a
rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the assumption
that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill level potentially
getting into conditions that limit their ability to control their course
effectively based on conversations with paddlers that have undertaken
circumnaviagations around large islands (the south island of New Zealand,
for example). In that case, the paddler assessed his own skill level to the
point that he would remain landbound for days at a time, and on days that he
did paddle found himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider
him to be one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own skill
level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive credentials (up to a
BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him and echoed similar praise
regarding his skill. However, apparently he seems to have a more
conservative assessment of his skill level than you do.

You are operating on the assumption that the use of a rudder on a kayak is
an aid to effective paddling.

That being said, I don't think the original discussion about rudders related
to circumnavigations around large islands in the ocean.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/21/05 6:16 PM:

"KMAN" wrote in
:



No matter how much time you spend developing your skills there is the
chance you're going to be out when conditions deteriorate to a point
which overcomes your ability to maintain a course. If an offshore
wind becomes strong enough such that despite your increased skill
level you're unable to steer toward a safe landing you might be
better served if some of your training time was spent paddling with a
rudder.

I can't agree with either of those assumptions.

Then you may be overestimating your abilities. I am making the assumption
that you, or many paddlers with a relatively high skill level potentially
getting into conditions that limit their ability to control their course
effectively based on conversations with paddlers that have undertaken
circumnaviagations around large islands (the south island of New Zealand,
for example). In that case, the paddler assessed his own skill level to the
point that he would remain landbound for days at a time, and on days that he
did paddle found himself in conditions which pushed his limits. I consider
him to be one of the best paddlers in the world. I base that assessment on
having spent several hours with him in training, improving my own skill
level, and talking with other paddlers with impressive credentials (up to a
BCU 5 star level) who did an expedition with him and echoed similar praise
regarding his skill. However, apparently he seems to have a more
conservative assessment of his skill level than you do.

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the artificiality of a
rudder to compensate for steering problems is the way the boat responds to
difficult conditions. For example, does the bow try to turn into the wind,
or does it blow downwind? In difficult conditions my kayak weatherkocks
rather than broaches (hope I got those terms right, I used don't talk about
this sort of stuff, so please feel free to correct/insult if I am wrong
there) and weathercocking characteristics are not as challenging as trying
to turn a boat that is getting blown downwind.

KMAN says:
================
Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.
==============

This is beginning to sound like a religious debate; with no
"resolution" in sight. KMAN didn't like the anti-lock brake comparison.
Well, the comparison that came to my mind was those car enthusiasts who
insist that driving an automatic just isn't really driving.

Nonsense. Or automatic cameras don't amount to photography. Nonsense
again.

Rudders are neither good nor bad: they're just rudders. Use 'em if you
want to; or don't.

Silly discussion!
++++++++++++++++

"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN says:
================
Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.
==============

This is beginning to sound like a religious debate; with no
"resolution" in sight. KMAN didn't like the anti-lock brake comparison.
Well, the comparison that came to my mind was those car enthusiasts who
insist that driving an automatic just isn't really driving.

You can, however, drive a car in a straight line regardless of transmission.

Or automatic cameras don't amount to photography.

You can, however, take a photograph in a straight line regardless of auto or
manual focus.

Rudders are neither good nor bad: they're just rudders. Use 'em if you
want to; or don't.

Silly discussion!

They definitely aren't good or bad. But a rudder is not required to paddle a
kayak efficiently and accurately.

On 22-Sep-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Rudders are neither good nor bad: they're just rudders.

Rudders are bad if they are used to compensate for a poorly designed
kayak. A rudder on a properly designed kayak is a tool.

There are also badly designed rudder systems. Sliding pedal systems
suck, since they don't allow for solid bracing. Some rudders are
mechanical nightmares and are more prone to failure. Some rudders
are properly shaped and others are slabs of aluminum or plastic.
Rudders can be more of a headache than they're worth if they are not
designed and made well.

Mike

KMAN wrote in
:

One other issue...maybe he's a great paddler but needs a new kayak. A
relevant consideration to successful paddling without the artificiality
of a rudder to compensate for steering problems is the way the boat
responds to difficult conditions. For example, does the bow try to turn
into the wind, or does it blow downwind?

For the New Zealand trip and the circumnavigation of Iceland he (Chris Duff)
did with two others I know he was paddling a NDK Romany Explorer. For the
circumnavigation of Ireland, the rest of the British Isle and the northeast
US (starting in NY, going down the coast, *up* the Mississippi and Missouri
rivers, through the great lakes and out the St. Lawrence river and back to
NYC) he was paddling a VCP Nordkapp. Those boats are considered by many to
be a couple of the most seaworthy sea kayaks ever made. Neither was
equipped with a rudder so he was relying on his skills when encountering
difficult conditions. You might want to read Chris's books "On Celtic
Tides" and "Southern Exposure" for a description as to just how difficult
those conditions were. The point is that even though Chris is one of the
best open water paddlers in the world he isn't claiming that he would ever
develop enough skills to handle conditions that would severly limit his
ability to maintain a desired course.