Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.
"Suds" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to
be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but
I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never
to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies
much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily
position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to
look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 9/18/05 3:53 PM:

KMAN wrote in
:

in article , Suds at
wrote on 9/18/05 9:18 AM:


"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder
to be paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about
learning to paddle so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came
with a rudder on it but I have never used it nor understood why I
would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"

These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock brakes.

Silly comparison.

You don't actually need a rudder to paddle efficiently and accurately.
That's the whole point.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first
year that I had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine
w/o the rudder. I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here,
on the open ocean, I deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very
strong winds. While I have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out
of (and hope/plan never to) I can't say the same for those I paddle
with. I frequently have to tow other paddlers out of bad situations.
My rudder makes such emergencies much easier to deal with. Using my
rudder I can turn on a dime, easily position myself next to a needy
paddle, and correct my path while towing another boat (or two.) My
rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time
to look into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.

Not sure who you are talking to, but since the post was initially
addressed to me, I already said that my kayak does have a rudder. I
don't use it and have no idea why I would need to use it. I've paddle
on the ocean too. In squalls, in big swells, etc and so on.

I'm not sure who I am talking to either but I know of at least one paddler
who has very impressive credentials that can describe a compelling reason
for using a rudder. This particular paddler does hundreds of miles
expeditions every summer and describes days where one might paddle 8-10
hours a day with a strong rear quartering wind. While she has the skills to
paddle under those conditions without a rudder, having one makes the day go
a lot easier.

As I see it, using a rudder shouldn't be used as a crutch in lieu of
developing strong paddling skills, however it can come in really handy under
certain conditions. Most paddlers aren't going to put themselves in
conditions where a rudder will become really useful but **** happens.

If you were in the middle of a several mile open water crossing and
conditions got so bad that it taxed your ability to maintain a course would
you deploy your rudder or maintain a "I'm too macho to use a rudder" image?

It's not about being "macho" at all. I don't find a rudder useful. It's a
distraction from paddling and my focus on my stroke and shifting of my body
weight, and doing everything else you need to do. Rear quartering winds
definitely can produce challenging conditions, but frankly I'd rather be
developing my paddling expertise than my ruddering expertise in dealing with
it.

in article , Grip at
wrote on 9/18/05 8:54 PM:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

Bah. The only necessity I can think of for a rudder was if you had nothing
but one half of a broken paddle and a broken arm and needed the rudder to
keep on course paddling with one hand on one side only. You never know eh?!?

"Suds" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to
be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it but
I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never
to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies
much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily
position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to
look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

Wish I'de had a rudder when I had to finish 3 miles of class IV after
breaking my paddle! lol But how to retro fit one onto a play boat?
"KMAN" wrote in message
...
in article , Grip at
wrote on 9/18/05 8:54 PM:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

Bah. The only necessity I can think of for a rudder was if you had nothing
but one half of a broken paddle and a broken arm and needed the rudder to
keep on course paddling with one hand on one side only. You never know
eh?!?

"Suds" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
...


I was actually suggesting buying a kayak that doesn't need a rudder to
be
paddled...or as someone else said, maybe it is more about learning to
paddle
so that a rudder is not required. My kayak came with a rudder on it
but
I
have never used it nor understood why I would want to.


"KMAN" or "caveman?"



These folks who scream against rudders remind me of the "driving
enthusiasts" who said the world would end with the introduction of
anti-lock
brakes.

Rudder or not? It depends on what type of kayaking you're doing. I
kayak
on the open ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. For the first year that
I
had my kayak, I did not have a rudder. I can do just fine w/o the
rudder.
I'm a big, strong, physically fit guy. But out here, on the open
ocean, I
deal with currents, tides, large swells, and very strong winds. While
I
have yet to meet a situation I can't paddle out of (and hope/plan never
to)
I can't say the same for those I paddle with. I frequently have to tow
other paddlers out of bad situations. My rudder makes such emergencies
much
easier to deal with. Using my rudder I can turn on a dime, easily
position
myself next to a needy paddle, and correct my path while towing another
boat
(or two.) My rudder was the best investment into kayaking I have made.

I would recommend getting a rudder. If you paddle enough that it's a
question, and your boat won't support a rudder, than maybe it's time to
look
into a new boat.

Just my 2 cents.




suds

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes then.

Mike

Nah, just flatten the rear end and pop a motor on there! Just seemed he had
the the right answer for the proper "use" of a rudder. I also never use one,
but then I paddle a playboat, creeker, and an XL-13. Tracking schmracking
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes then.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 18-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Case in point there suds.....you learned to paddle properly, now you use
your rudder properly. I would say you're post sets an excellent example.

I guess they should get around to adding rudders to all those canoes then.

Mike

LOL

On 20-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Just seemed he had
the the right answer for the proper "use" of a rudder.

True, but a rudder on a kayak makes as much sense as a
rudder on a canoe. Why should one need a rudder and the
other not?

Mariner made kayaks that did not require either rudders
or skegs. The hull was optimized for neutral helm at
typical paddling speeds and would leecock slightly when
paddled slower and weathercock a bit when paddled fast.
The seat was designed to shift fore and aft to adjust the
trim to provide correction.

I've come to the conclusion that rudders are almost completely
superflous. If you're sailing a kayak, they are pretty much
essential, but otherwise they are a crutch for either bad
designers or bad paddlers.

Skegs allow a modicum of adjustment for a hull that is designed
to be rather playful without one, but again they should not be
needed.

Parts break; good design works.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 20-Sep-2005, "Grip" wrote:

Just seemed he had
the the right answer for the proper "use" of a rudder.

True, but a rudder on a kayak makes as much sense as a
rudder on a canoe. Why should one need a rudder and the
other not?

Precisely.

Mariner made kayaks that did not require either rudders
or skegs. The hull was optimized for neutral helm at
typical paddling speeds and would leecock slightly when
paddled slower and weathercock a bit when paddled fast.
The seat was designed to shift fore and aft to adjust the
trim to provide correction.

I've come to the conclusion that rudders are almost completely
superflous.

Same here.

If you're sailing a kayak, they are pretty much
essential, but otherwise they are a crutch for either bad
designers or bad paddlers.

Precisely.

Skegs allow a modicum of adjustment for a hull that is designed
to be rather playful without one, but again they should not be
needed.

Right.

Parts break; good design works.

Mike

I've noticed, I think, that some of the kayaks mentioned regarding the want
of a rudder are not badly designed boats.

On 20-Sep-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

I've noticed, I think, that some of the kayaks mentioned regarding the want
of a rudder are not badly designed boats.

Manufacturers put rudders on kayaks because the average buyer has an
expectation of a rudder. The CD Solstice, for example, handles just
fine without a rudder. I paddled one for 5 years and never used the
rudder.

Mike