True, but look around you on the highway. What percentage of cars would you
estimate have just one or two passengers on a typical work day? A few years
back, the University of Rochester posted students from a stats class at the
entrance to the NY State Thruway and found that about 85% of vehicles had
one passenger. This was a weekday morning from rush hour through lunch time.
That's one as in "1".

Obviously, nobody's going to tow with a hybrid, but that's not relevant.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of your hybrids and very high fuel efficiency vehicles are small,
lightweight and not enough capacity to haul around the 2-4 kids and their
gear as well as the groceries. It is fine for a DINK or single person,
not one who wants to haul the kids to the little league game, or camping
and to tow a boat of trailer. It may be OK as a 2nd vehicle for the
commuter.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I pointed
out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already. This is not
an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE of these
vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the current crop of
still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph
beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil prices
are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe
otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged
by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out
of proportion to changes in supply & demand.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are
not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can
substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars?
Are you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current price
of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and market
alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore missed the
boat on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just
look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate
the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes,
and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one
reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in
demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for
better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it
worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient
cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas
guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78
degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost
of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy
sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find
alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of
gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of
gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they
would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until
the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold.
It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg.
Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out
with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I pointed
out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already. This is not
an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE of these
vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the current crop of
still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph
beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil prices
are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe
otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged
by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out
of proportion to changes in supply & demand.

The prices are in line with the growth in demand. That is what drives the
futures market. Huge change in demand from China. All those
manufacturing jobs that went there require energy to run the factory.
Melt the scrap iron, make the plastics, and run the screw guns that put
the items together. Commodity markets are a bet on the availability of the
commodity. And the commodity: Oil has not become more available and the
refinery capacity has not increased. Good bet on the future price. The
other thing that drives the price is the underpriced oil that has been
supplied for the last 10 years or so. I think it was Southwest Airlines
that locked in oil at $25 barrel for 10 years or so. That is expiring,
but the traders have to make up that money some how. And they shift that
loss to the new contracts.


Do you think China's demand has increased proportionately to the rise in gas
prices over the past 12 months? I have dinner on the grill, so I don't have
time to go looking for stats, but I'll guess "no".

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
news

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel
efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their
while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not
negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and
Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost
of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy
sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find
alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the
cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same
with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with
stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.






Prius on a good day makes 45 mpg. That is nice, but the only ones who are
beating the 45 mpg max are the "hot rodders" who are stuffing more
batteries in and adding the "plug in hybrid" capability. Long highway
trip, you will get about 30 on a hybrid. Very little braking, slowing
down, etc that is recovered as stored energy. The around town and short
stop and go trips are the most efficient use. The plug in modifiers get
the advantage of the extra battery capacity and plug in to the house
charging. Up until a couple of years ago, that voided the hybrids
warrantee.


Interesting, but not relevant to what we're discussing.

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:39:39 -0400, P. Fritz wrote:


With the increase in the cost of oil, alternative energy sources become
more economically viable. When they become more economically viable,
more will be produced.....funny how capitalism can solve the problem :-)


Well, it better start solving. Oh, and let's not limit ourselves to oil
as an energy source. Look around you, see all those plastics? Oil
based. Open your refrigerator, see all that food? Oil based fertilizers
put it there. Medicine cabinet? Yup, many medicines are oil based.

Oil isn't just fuel. It is everywhere in our daily lives.

Doug,
You are making a great argument for raising the price of gas high enough
that people will car pool and buy fuel efficient cars.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
True, but look around you on the highway. What percentage of cars would
you estimate have just one or two passengers on a typical work day? A few
years back, the University of Rochester posted students from a stats class
at the entrance to the NY State Thruway and found that about 85% of
vehicles had one passenger. This was a weekday morning from rush hour
through lunch time. That's one as in "1".

Obviously, nobody's going to tow with a hybrid, but that's not relevant.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of your hybrids and very high fuel efficiency vehicles are small,
lightweight and not enough capacity to haul around the 2-4 kids and their
gear as well as the groceries. It is fine for a DINK or single person,
not one who wants to haul the kids to the little league game, or camping
and to tow a boat of trailer. It may be OK as a 2nd vehicle for the
commuter.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I
pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already.
This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE
of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the
current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph
beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil
prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe
otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged
by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly out
of proportion to changes in supply & demand.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are
not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can
substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars? Are
you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current
price of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and
market alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore
missed the boat on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just
look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who
have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't
negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like
hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high efficiency",
compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one
reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in
demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for
better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it
worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient
cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas
guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at
78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the
cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy
sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find
alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of
gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of
gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they
would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until
the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold.
It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg.
Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out
with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

I don't think carpooling has any life in it as an option any more. There are
places where driving is as hideous as fingernails on a blackboard (Long
Island, for instance), and carpooling makes perfect sense. It really didn't
catch on, and I don't think the price of fuel would change that.

We may be talking about extremes here, though. Let's get moderate. Eliminate
from the equation those people who drive a gigantic Lincoln or Caddy SUV to
work, all alone, because those people are idiots and you'll never change
them. You'll never get them to switch to a Toyota Prius, or even a Camry.
Instead, focus on people who have 2 mini vans in the family, but only really
need one for those times when they need to move a lot of kids or furniture
or 15 bags of mulch. I know people like that. One vehicle is used for
commuting, and the other is allowed to get beat up & filthy with heavy
errands (or sticky children). Those are the families who should AT LEAST
switch to a sedan that takes them from 23 mpg to 30 or 32 mpg.

I'd suggest public service advertising focused at those people, but there's
a big diaper crowd here who needs to have their bottle of milk, and they'd
call such advertising either a waste of money, or excessive government
control.


"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
You are making a great argument for raising the price of gas high enough
that people will car pool and buy fuel efficient cars.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
True, but look around you on the highway. What percentage of cars would
you estimate have just one or two passengers on a typical work day? A few
years back, the University of Rochester posted students from a stats
class at the entrance to the NY State Thruway and found that about 85% of
vehicles had one passenger. This was a weekday morning from rush hour
through lunch time. That's one as in "1".

Obviously, nobody's going to tow with a hybrid, but that's not relevant.

"Bill McKee" wrote in message
k.net...
Most of your hybrids and very high fuel efficiency vehicles are small,
lightweight and not enough capacity to haul around the 2-4 kids and
their gear as well as the groceries. It is fine for a DINK or single
person, not one who wants to haul the kids to the little league game, or
camping and to tow a boat of trailer. It may be OK as a 2nd vehicle for
the commuter.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I
pointed out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already.
This is not an absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE
of these vehicles will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the
current crop of still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph
beginning with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil
prices are largely disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe
otherwise, you are not familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged
by speculators. The price increases of the past 12 months are wildly
out of proportion to changes in supply & demand.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are
not controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can
substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars?
Are you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current
price of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and
market alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore
missed the boat on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their
most experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could
just look around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people
who have absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that
doesn't negate the fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are
selling like hotcakes, and they're not even in the category of "high
efficiency", compared to vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one
reason for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in
demand, without any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for
better fuel efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make
it worth their while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient
cars, does not negate the fact that too many people are buying gas
guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at
78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the
cost of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative
energy sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to
find alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of
gas, are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of
gas. If they really were concerned about the price of gas, they
would buy a hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until
the cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold.
It's been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30
mpg. Same with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these
out with stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

Bill McKee wrote:

Prius on a good day makes 45 mpg. That is nice, but the only ones who are
beating the 45 mpg max are the "hot rodders" who are stuffing more batteries
in and adding the "plug in hybrid" capability. Long highway trip, you will
get about 30 on a hybrid. Very little braking, slowing down, etc that is
recovered as stored energy. The around town and short stop and go trips are
the most efficient use. The plug in modifiers get the advantage of the
extra battery capacity and plug in to the house charging. Up until a couple
of years ago, that voided the hybrids warrantee.

In my office of 12 there are 2 stock Honda Insights averaging 60+ mpg
year round over the last 4+ years.

-rick-

LOL Harry!

And to think, for ol' "Bushie" it was at least 80% clear profit!

you should have bought into Haliburton stock 4yrs ago when you had the
chance!

Dan J.S. wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in
Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65.

Thanks, Dubya.

If you really believe it's Bush's fault, you lost all credibility you had.

Bad Policy Fuels High Prices

As millions of Americans hop in their cars for vacation, the average
price for a gallon of gas has spiked to $2.60 -- and many people are
paying more than $3.00 per gallon to fill their tank. While most
everyone is feeling the pinch, "for many lower-income people -- often
those who work in service jobs or are looking for work -- each new bump
up in price means altering daily routines, spending less on clothes and
food, and keeping the kids at home instead of driving them to the pool
or friends' houses." A big part of the problem is that, despite huge
advances in technology, "America's cars and trucks are significantly
less efficient, on average, than they were in the late 1980's," driving
up demand, and the price, for fuel. Meanwhile, the Bush administration
has staunchly resisted efforts to help solve the problem by improving
fuel efficiency standards. Now, all Americans are paying the price.

BUSH ADMINISTRATION CONCEALS FUEL ECONOMY REPORT: In late July, "the
Environmental Protection Agency made an 11th-hour decision...to delay
the planned release of an annual report on fuel economy." The decision
to block the release of the report was made "because it would have come
on the eve of a final vote in Congress on energy legislation." The
study showed that "the average 2004 model car or truck got 20.8 miles
per gallon, about 6 percent less than the 22.1 m.p.g. of the average
new vehicle sold in the late 1980's." Specifically, "the average 2004
model sold by Nissan, Hyundai and Volkswagen was at least a half-mile a
gallon less fuel-efficient than in the previous model year, a sharp
drop." (A report by Environmental Defense provides details for all
major manufacturers.) That wasn't news the Bush administration wanted
public to hear because the bill "largely ignore[d] auto mileage
regulations." Several Senators offered amendments "to strengthen fuel
economy standards for S.U.V.'s, minivans and pickups" but they were all
rejected. Bush signed the energy bill, which gave away billions to the
energy industry, on August 8. Even the administration acknowledges the
bill will do nothing to reduce gas prices.

FAST, FURIOUS AND GAS-GUZZLING: The failure to mandate the production
of more fuel efficient vehicles is a giant missed opportunity. There
have been "leaps in engine technology over the last couple of decades"
that could make cars much more efficient. But in the absence of
stricter efficiency standards, these gains "have been mostly used to
make cars faster." Also, since the early 1980s, "average new vehicle
weight has risen to about 4,000 pounds today, from about 3,200." During
that time "the horsepower of an average engine has roughly doubled over
two decades, trimming four seconds from the time it takes for the
average vehicle to accelerate from zero to 60."

KEEP ON TRUCKING: The key to avoiding fuel efficiency standards is to
classify every new and trendy "crossover" vehicle as a truck. Light
trucks "are held to a lower [average fuel efficiency] standard-20.7
mpg as of model year 2003, compared to 27.5 mpg for cars."
Manufacturers are also moving vehicles that were once classified as
cars to the truck class "to sell more of the large trucks on which
profit margins have been so high." Today "S.U.V.'s and other light-duty
vehicles account for 40 percent of the nation's oil use." With only the
smallest cars remaining in the "car class" there is no pressure to
improve the efficiency of those vehicles either. President Bush and the
Congress had the opportunity to close these loopholes and improve
overall efficiency in the energy bill, but didn't do it. New
regulations set to be released later this month will create up to five
classes of vehicles based on height and width. Dan Becker of the Sierra
Club says the upcoming proposal is "an invitation to game the system."

BUSH PROTECTS MASSIVE LOOPHOLE FOR HUMMERS: In 2003, President Bush
proposed extending "fuel economy regulations to include Hummer H2's and
other huge sport utility vehicles," which are now completely exempt. As
gas prices soar to record levels, the administration has abandoned the
proposal. The exemption applies to vehicles weighing over 8,500 pounds.
When it was created, "vehicles of that weight were generally used for
commercial purposes, but now hundreds of thousands sold each year are
intended for family use." The exemption, along with potential tax
breaks for consumers who purchase them, create "powerful incentives to
produce such vehicles."

wrote in message
oups.com...

Dan J.S. wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Regular grade gasoline was $3.05 a gallon yesterday at several docks in
Annapolis. Diesel was $2.61 to $2.65.

Thanks, Dubya.

If you really believe it's Bush's fault, you lost all credibility you
had.

Bad Policy Fuels High Prices

It should be amusing to see how the automatons defend this, or pretend they
were not aware of it. :-)