"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are
driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they
really
were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a
either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient
car
or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol
fuels make it worth while to do so.

Which is why doug's comment is so ridiculous. If there was a market for
those cars, the big three would be producing them......as it is, Chysler
can't keep up with depmand for their new huge truck,

Secondly, engine technology is limited wrt to increasing fuel economy. The
auto manufacturer's have increased fleet fuel efficiency by lightening the
load........reducing the sheet metal thickness, more plastic and aluminum,
shaving fractions of ounces off of every part..................we end up
paying for it in the long run in car repairs, highway deaths, etc.





"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Stanley Barthfarkle" wrote in message
. ..

If Detroit has any decent businesspeople at the reins nowadays, they
will
come up with a 50-60 mpg (or more) commuter vehicle. I'd buy one.......

Cars like the Toyota Prius are already in that mpg range. Why wait for
Detroit to get its head out of its ass?

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are
driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they
really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car
and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient
car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of
petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's been
that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with models
from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid "employee
discount" offers, as do the big 3.

"P. Fritz" wrote in message
...

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are
driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they
really
were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car and a
either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient
car
or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of petrol
fuels make it worth while to do so.

Which is why doug's comment is so ridiculous. If there was a market for
those cars, the big three would be producing them......as it is, Chysler
can't keep up with depmand for their new huge truck,

Secondly, engine technology is limited wrt to increasing fuel economy.
The
auto manufacturer's have increased fleet fuel efficiency by lightening the
load........reducing the sheet metal thickness, more plastic and aluminum,
shaving fractions of ounces off of every part..................we end up
paying for it in the long run in car repairs, highway deaths, etc.

We end up paying for it? Really?

Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason for
the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without any
increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient cars
until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The fact that
a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact that too many
people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping their home
thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of
gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources. Al's
idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas, are
driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If they
really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a hybrid car
and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient
car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of
petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with
models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid
"employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to vehicles
like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient
cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The
fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact
that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while keeping
their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of
gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources.
Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative
energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel efficient
car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the cost of
petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same with
models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with stupid
"employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are not
controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can substantially
reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars? Are you disagreeing
with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current price of
fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and market
alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore missed the boat
on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient
cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The
fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact
that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while
keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of
gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources.
Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative
energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the
cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same
with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with
stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

The confusion began here when you said consumers would not buy fuel
efficient vehicles until this that or the other thing happened. I pointed
out that these vehicles exist and are selling nicely already. This is not an
absolute statement, since it should be obvious that MORE of these vehicles
will be sold as fuel prices increase, and as the current crop of
still-useful vehicles ages and needs replacement.

It did NOT disagree with anything you said in your last paragraph beginning
with "I can't figure out...". One exception, though: Oil prices are largely
disconnected from supply and demand. If you believe otherwise, you are not
familiar with how daily prices are REALLY pegged by speculators. The price
increases of the past 12 months are wildly out of proportion to changes in
supply & demand.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I can't figure out what you are saying. Are you saying gas prices are not
controlled by supply and demand? Do you not agree that we can
substantially reduce our consumption by buying fuel efficient cars? Are
you disagreeing with the experts when they say the only long term
solution is to find alternative energy sources, and at the current price
of fossil fuel there is no economic incentive to developed and market
alternative energy? Do you think everyone including Al Gore missed the
boat on this?

pHs - how did you like my boating reference?


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel
efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their
while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not
negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and
Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost
of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy
sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find
alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the
cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same
with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with
stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

Doug,
I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine buying
patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history.
These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the
next 15 - 20 yrs.



Best-selling vehicles

Car First-half 2004 sales Base price
• Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920
• Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485
• Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365
• Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560
• Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390
• Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690
• Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500
• Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320
• Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395
• Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel efficient
cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The
fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact
that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while
keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost of
gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources.
Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative
energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the
cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same
with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with
stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

Well....at least we know that the vehicles from the big 3 will be gone
within a few years. As far as the figures for the big trucks, I think you
have to subtract those sold to people who actually MUST have such vehicles
for their work. That would leave us with real numbers for the yahoos who buy
"a hemi" just because they feel like it.

"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
I know you prefer to talk to the experienced salepeople to determine
buying patterns, but I found it easier to look at sales history.
These gas guzzlers purchased in 2004 will continue to guzzle gas for the
next 15 - 20 yrs.



Best-selling vehicles

Car First-half 2004 sales Base price
. Ford F-Series 432,969 $19,920
. Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 $19,485
. Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 $20,365
. Toyota Camry 213,625 $19,560
. Honda Accord 192,106 $16,390
. Ford Explorer 168,059 $23,690
. Honda Civic 162,483 $13,500
. Ford Taurus 144,035 $20,320
. Chevrolet Impala 139,460 22,395
. Dodge Caravan 131,367 $18,995



"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel
efficient
cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their while. The
fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not negate the fact
that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and Trucks, while
keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost
of
gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy sources.
Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find alternative
energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the
cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.

That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same
with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with
stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.

Harry,
I know you are upset because Doug and I are having a conversation, why don't
you just ignore us and go back to insulting JohnH, JimH and all the other
right wing borg.

Maybe you can make up some more stories to boost your feeble ego.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Doug Kanter wrote:
Stop into a Toyota or Honda dealer, ask to speak briefly to their most
experienced salesperson, and ask what's selling. Or, you could just look
around. I agree that too many gas pigs are sold to people who have
absolutely zero need for a truck of any kind, but that doesn't negate the
fact that cars like Corollas and Civics are selling like hotcakes, and
they're not even in the category of "high efficiency", compared to
vehicles like the Prius (50+ mpg).



"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Doug,
What is silly is your inability to see the obvious. There is one reason
for the increase of gas prices. There is an increase in demand, without
any increase in supply. Consumers will not pay for better fuel
efficient cars until the cost of the gas guzzlers make it worth their
while. The fact that a few people buy fuel efficient cars, does not
negate the fact that too many people are buying gas guzzling SUV and
Trucks, while keeping their home thermostat set at 78 degrees.

Heck even Al Gore who was dumb as dirt, knew you had to raise the cost
of gas to make it economically viable to find alternative energy
sources. Al's idea was to tax gas $3/gal and use the tax to find
alternative energy.


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"Juan Valdez" wrote in message
...
Most of the people in rec.boats who complain about the price of gas,
are driving trucks with low mpg and boats that burn tons of gas. If
they really were concerned about the price of gas, they would buy a
hybrid car and a either a trawler or sailboat.

They refuse to see the obvious. Consumers will not buy a fuel
efficient car or boat, or pay for alternative energy sources until the
cost of petrol fuels make it worth while to do so.
That's silly. There are plenty of fuel efficient cars being sold. It's
been that way for years. Even a basic Corolla gets over 30 mpg. Same
with models from Honda. Dealers don't need to whore these out with
stupid "employee discount" offers, as do the big 3.






If you are arguing with "Juan," you are arguing with someone whose only
interest here is "playing" other participants.