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#1
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A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:
Scott figures: =========== It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped and I don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct" speech, what offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a debit to the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be leveled out by abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal. ========= OK. in my anecdote, there was the need for brevity. To fully explain the hypocrisy: here's the rest of the story. The parents in question have a province-wide reputation as advocates for the disabled. A cause celebre for them is school mainstreaming of disabled pupils. OK, so given their passion for this cause, they then remove their bright daughter to an elite private school that does not admit pupils with disabilities. Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly in Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging offense in Canada. As I recall, their "rationale" for doing so was that there were too many ESL students in the public school their daughters were attending. "ESL" meaning "handicapped" I presume? Surely, if "mainstreaming" is good for the goose, it ought also to be good for the gander. That's why it was hypocritical. Hm. Well, given what you say, I'd say they were being perfectly consistent with their beliefs and advocacy. They are "mainstreaming" their disabled daughter, just as they argue ought to be done. Clearly they *could* provide the very best individual, specialized care and education for their disabled child, but choose instead to keep her in public school in order to "walk the walk" and demonstrate that disabled children can be "mainstreamed." I laud them for standing by their principles. On the other hand, their gifted daughter evidently needs a more intellectually stimulating environment to reach her full potential, so they decided not to stint on her education by keeping her in private school. I see no hypocrisy at all. I see rational judgment and a concern both for their children and other disabled children, because they evidently genuinely feel that the public school environment provides a SUPERIOR educational AND SOCIAL environment for their disabled daughter. I happen to agree with them. Putting disabled children in "special ed" programs, even very good ones, isolates them from society and from their peers, and it leaves them in the lurch when it comes to the necessary socialization skills they can only learn when interacting with other non-disabled children. "Mainstreaming" is specifically intended to get disabled children out of isolation and get them involved in the community and society, where they can both learn to cope with their disabilities in the real world as well as learn to make friends and dispel prejudices and preconceptions that are often part and parcel of "normal" childhood experience when "normal" children are isolated from the disabled. Anything that leads towards the understanding that the disabled are not "freaks" of some kind is good, and I applaud these parents for sticking with it. As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many problems with socialization, and will experience socialization at her new school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has a disabled sister. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
#2
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#3
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KMAN wrote:
Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly in Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging offense in Canada. Actually, Scott, you'll be happy to know (I assume) that in many ways the US is well ahead of Canada in terms of the rights of people with disabilities. I'm not sure, but BCITORGB might be talking about intellectual disabilities, rather than physical disabilities. ============== Correct, I was. =============== frtzw906 |
#4
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KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:
As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many problems with socialization Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the same). ========================= Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she, always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University has been a godsend for her. ==================== and will experience socialization at her new school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has a disabled sister. Explain again. The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled. Why? ================= Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know. =============================== frtzw906 |
#5
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A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:
KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks: As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many problems with socialization Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the same). It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which create problems. ========================= Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she, always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University has been a godsend for her. ==================== This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on academics to the exclusion of socialization. Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it takes parental complicity. and will experience socialization at her new school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has a disabled sister. Explain again. The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled. Why? ================= Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know. =============================== Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize their *intellectual* potential. If they are unchallenged by ordinary educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their intellect suffers. At the same time, gifted children also need socialization time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the "green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity. Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for their disabilities, but most of all they need socialization with others to learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special, disabled-only classes. In such classes, what socialization they learn is how to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else. This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends with non-disabled children. Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children. It only exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on for all children friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
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#7
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KMAN contributes:
=============== You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if the results are as you expect. What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend time with them on weekends and during the summer. They also need a curriculum that meets their needs.... None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class... What is happening is the kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker, which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of disparaging conclusions about you. ================= WOW! KMAN, your insights are bang-on. frtzw906 |
#8
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![]() "BCITORGB" wrote in message oups.com... KMAN contributes: =============== You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if the results are as you expect. What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend time with them on weekends and during the summer. They also need a curriculum that meets their needs.... None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class... What is happening is the kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker, which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of disparaging conclusions about you. ================= WOW! KMAN, your insights are bang-on. frtzw906 Only because I have been involved with people with intellectual disabilities and their families for almost twenty years in a variety of capacities - particularly...listening. |
#9
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A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:
in article , Scott Weiser at wrote on 4/3/05 10:14 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote: KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks: As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many problems with socialization Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the same). It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which create problems. ========================= Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she, always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University has been a godsend for her. ==================== This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on academics to the exclusion of socialization. Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it takes parental complicity. Actually, once kids reach adolescense, the fact that they were well socialized at an early age seems to matter very little, in terms of the experiences of gifted children and children with intellectual disabilities. The high school experience results in abuse and isolation, even if physically integrated with other kids. I'll grant you that high school is a cruel place, but it's a lot less cruel if a large proportion of the students have grown up with disabled schoolmates. It takes time, of course, to change the culture. and will experience socialization at her new school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has a disabled sister. Explain again. The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled. Why? ================= Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know. =============================== Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize their *intellectual* potential. And you don't think a student with an intellectual disability needs specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize his/her intellectual potential? I believe I said that just below. However, their needs are different. Don't you think it would be even more important for that student than the student who is gifted, given that the student who is gifted is likely bound for many more years of formal educational opportunities, where as the student who has an intellectual disability is likely to complete their formal education at the end of high school? It depends in part on the nature of the disability. If they are unchallenged by ordinary educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their intellect suffers. What do you think is happening to the intellect of the student with an intellectual disability who is forced to sit through an irrelevant curriculum? What do you think is happening to their behaviour? How do you think it impacts on them to be sitting in a classroom with a curriculum that doesn't meet their needs, being bored, and being disruptive. Do you think that earns them a whole pile of non-disabled peers who invite them out on dates for Saturday night? Nobody said it was easy. Still, mainstreaming disabled students is better for them, and for their peers, and for society, than hiding them away in "special" schools. We tried that model. It doesn't work. At the same time, gifted children also need socialization time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the "green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity. Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for their disabilities If you mean they need learning opportunities that are appropriate to their needs, that is certainly true. Yup. but most of all they need socialization with others to learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special, disabled-only classes. Do you have evidence that they learn these socialization skills through being placed in classes where the curriculum is directed to everyone but them? It depends on the individual student, the particular class, and the specific needs of the disabled student. It may well require additional teaching aides to help the disabled student keep up. It may require special teaching techniques and tools. It may even require modifying the *whole* curriculum so that the "normal" students participate in ways which help the disabled students through. Peer mentoring has had some success. It's a matter of tailoring the classroom to the students, not tailoring the students to the classroom, which is a fundamental paradigm shift for most public schools. In such classes, what socialization they learn is how to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else. You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if the results are as you expect. You might want to not make assumptions about what I know about the subject. What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend time with them on weekends and during the summer. Yup. I agree. And they find those peer groups not just among the disabled, but among ordinary students in a non-discriminatory environment. They also need a curriculum that meets their needs - learning how to use the public transportation system and how to manage money. Yup, but not until they are older. We're talking about young children here, remember. The need help with the challenge of a world that deals in abstraction, places importantance on sequencing, requires the ability to read the emotional states of others, and the ability to understand various social contexts and apply appropriate behaviours - all areas where people with intellectual disabilities experience severe learning difficulties. Yup. No argument there. They do need help in those areas beyond what an ordinary student would. None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class, Correct. What's taught in Chemistry is chemistry. Plenty of disabled students are capable of learning chemistry. Physics, too. Just look at Stephen Hawking. and in fact, you probably could not come up with a more cruel environment. Learning to deal with peer cruelty is also a necessary skill. I submit very little is being taught about socialization either. That may be true, but that is the fault of the educators and the people who oversee them (like the parents) not the student. So fix the problem. What is happening is the kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker, which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of disparaging conclusions about you. I find the way that you stereotype all "kids with disabilities." Very diverse of you. This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends with non-disabled children. Do you have evidence that this happens as a result of being placed in the mainstream classroom? Sure. It happens all the time. To develop a friendship, mutual respect is required. It's hard to develop the respect of your non-disabled peers if you are sitting in algebra class doing self-stimulation to pass the time as concepts totally irrelevant to you and of no benefit to your future are discussed, and the rest of the class points at you and comes up with insulting nicknames. Stereotyping. What about the "disabled" kid who is perfectly normal intellectually, but was paralyzed in a car accident and can't move anything below her neck? Do you think she is going to be "self-stimulating" rather than learning algebra? You really need to examine your anti-disability prejudices a bit. Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children. I agree. Don't hide them. Give them a curriculum that meets their needs and make sure that their achievements are celebrated as loudly and proudly as anyone else in the school. You falsely presume that the only curriculum that they "need" is specialized life-skills training. Disabled kids need to learn math, science, english and all the things any child needs to learn. Yes, they may need MORE help, and specialized life-skills training *in addition* to their regular schooling, but that doesn't mean they should be excluded from mainstream society. It only exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads. This works quite well in elementary school, but starting in middle school and by the time of high school it doesn't work, I disagree. How well it works in high school depends entirely on how much importance parents, teachers, students and the community as a whole puts on tolerance, diversity and empathy for the disabled. and part of the reason is simply that for the non-disabled students, the purpose of high school is to move on to the next academic step (university or college) which is not the destination for students with intellectual disabilities. Most high schools are little more than a 4 year holding pattern wherein children go through puberty and learn social skills. That being the case, one of the skills they need to learn is how to get along with the disabled. If they don't learn it then, they will grow up to be bigoted, intolerant "abilitists" who stereotype, demean and marginalize the disabled. They need a curriculum that is focused on giving them the most tools possible to enjoy a meaningful and contributing existence in the post-school world. Sitting in classrooms and spacing out while someone else's curriculum is delivered won't accomplish this. Stereotyping. Ensuring an inclusive school environment for all is very important, but putting kids with disabilities into a classroom that is delivering a curriculum that does not meet their needs for the misguided purpose of offering "socialization" is a fool's game. No, it's a game of compassion and diversity that every child needs to learn, if for no other reason than the "there but by the grace of God go I" lesson. And it is the person with the disability that suffers. Not necessarily. Not if the community is compassionate and supportive. Now, if you are talking about a person who happens to use a wheelchair but is perfectly capable of benefitting from the Grade 12 chemistry curriculum, then by all means, that's where they belong, not in some separate classroom doing the same work but separated from their non-disabled peers. The problem with your argument is that it makes grossly erroneous presumptions about "the disabled" and their abilities. -- Regards, Scott Weiser "I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM © 2005 Scott Weiser |
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