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Scott Weiser
 
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A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott figures:
===========
It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped
and I don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct"
speech, what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a
debit to the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be
leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.
=========

OK. in my anecdote, there was the need for brevity. To fully explain
the hypocrisy: here's the rest of the story.

The parents in question have a province-wide reputation as advocates
for the disabled. A cause celebre for them is school mainstreaming of
disabled pupils.

OK, so given their passion for this cause, they then remove their
bright daughter to an elite private school that does not admit pupils
with disabilities.


Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly in
Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on the
basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging
offense in Canada.

As I recall, their "rationale" for doing so was that
there were too many ESL students in the public school their daughters
were attending.


"ESL" meaning "handicapped" I presume?

Surely, if "mainstreaming" is good for the goose, it
ought also to be good for the gander.

That's why it was hypocritical.


Hm. Well, given what you say, I'd say they were being perfectly consistent
with their beliefs and advocacy. They are "mainstreaming" their disabled
daughter, just as they argue ought to be done. Clearly they *could* provide
the very best individual, specialized care and education for their disabled
child, but choose instead to keep her in public school in order to "walk the
walk" and demonstrate that disabled children can be "mainstreamed." I laud
them for standing by their principles.

On the other hand, their gifted daughter evidently needs a more
intellectually stimulating environment to reach her full potential, so they
decided not to stint on her education by keeping her in private school.

I see no hypocrisy at all. I see rational judgment and a concern both for
their children and other disabled children, because they evidently genuinely
feel that the public school environment provides a SUPERIOR educational AND
SOCIAL environment for their disabled daughter. I happen to agree with them.

Putting disabled children in "special ed" programs, even very good ones,
isolates them from society and from their peers, and it leaves them in the
lurch when it comes to the necessary socialization skills they can only
learn when interacting with other non-disabled children. "Mainstreaming" is
specifically intended to get disabled children out of isolation and get them
involved in the community and society, where they can both learn to cope
with their disabilities in the real world as well as learn to make friends
and dispel prejudices and preconceptions that are often part and parcel of
"normal" childhood experience when "normal" children are isolated from the
disabled. Anything that leads towards the understanding that the disabled
are not "freaks" of some kind is good, and I applaud these parents for
sticking with it.

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization, and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has
a disabled sister.
--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

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KMAN
 
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in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/3/05 2:43 AM:

A Usenet persona calling itself BCITORGB wrote:

Scott figures:
===========
It's not the "handicapped" that bothers me...people can be handicapped
and I don't subscribe to the pressure to use "politically correct"
speech, what
offended me is the compartmentalizing of the handicapped child as a
debit to the system and your presumption that this debit ought to be
leveled out by
abusing her sister out of egalitarian zeal.
=========

OK. in my anecdote, there was the need for brevity. To fully explain
the hypocrisy: here's the rest of the story.

The parents in question have a province-wide reputation as advocates
for the disabled. A cause celebre for them is school mainstreaming of
disabled pupils.

OK, so given their passion for this cause, they then remove their
bright daughter to an elite private school that does not admit pupils
with disabilities.


Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly in
Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on the
basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging
offense in Canada.


Actually, Scott, you'll be happy to know (I assume) that in many ways the US
is well ahead of Canada in terms of the rights of people with disabilities.

I'm not sure, but BCITORGB might be talking about intellectual disabilities,
rather than physical disabilities.

As I recall, their "rationale" for doing so was that
there were too many ESL students in the public school their daughters
were attending.


"ESL" meaning "handicapped" I presume?


English as a Second Language.

Surely, if "mainstreaming" is good for the goose, it
ought also to be good for the gander.

That's why it was hypocritical.


Hm. Well, given what you say, I'd say they were being perfectly consistent
with their beliefs and advocacy. They are "mainstreaming" their disabled
daughter, just as they argue ought to be done. Clearly they *could* provide
the very best individual, specialized care and education for their disabled
child, but choose instead to keep her in public school in order to "walk the
walk" and demonstrate that disabled children can be "mainstreamed." I laud
them for standing by their principles.

On the other hand, their gifted daughter evidently needs a more
intellectually stimulating environment to reach her full potential, so they
decided not to stint on her education by keeping her in private school.

I see no hypocrisy at all. I see rational judgment and a concern both for
their children and other disabled children, because they evidently genuinely
feel that the public school environment provides a SUPERIOR educational AND
SOCIAL environment for their disabled daughter. I happen to agree with them.


But...that's the very nature of the hypocrisy.

They want a generalized environment for one daughter, and a specialized
environment for the other.

Without commenting on which type of environment would be most beneficial for
either of these individuals, I do find the behaviour of the parents
hypocritical.

Putting disabled children in "special ed" programs, even very good ones,
isolates them from society and from their peers, and it leaves them in the
lurch when it comes to the necessary socialization skills they can only
learn when interacting with other non-disabled children.


There are different forms of isolation, and there are lots of interesting
articles and first hand accounts you might want to explore regarding the
experiences of people with disabilities in "mainstreaming."

It is also important to realize that the school environment is a temporary
environment, and there is life after school. "Mainstreaming" usually means
that a person with a disability (one with an intellectual disability) is
simply filling up space in a classroom with a curriculum that is not meant
for nor meeting their needs.

"Mainstreaming" is
specifically intended to get disabled children out of isolation and get them
involved in the community and society, where they can both learn to cope
with their disabilities in the real world as well as learn to make friends
and dispel prejudices and preconceptions that are often part and parcel of
"normal" childhood experience when "normal" children are isolated from the
disabled. Anything that leads towards the understanding that the disabled
are not "freaks" of some kind is good, and I applaud these parents for
sticking with it.


There's little evidence that "mainstreaming" accomplishes any of what you
think it does. But without getting into that, I'm confused by your position
about what the parents did.

If mainstreaming is all about people with all different abilities spending
time together, then how is pulling their bright daughter out of the
mainstream consistent with that belief?

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization


Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the
same).

and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has
a disabled sister.


Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled.

Why?



  #3   Report Post  
frtzw906
 
Posts: n/a
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KMAN wrote:


Um, is this true? I find that extremely hard to believe, particularly in
Canada, because even here in the USA, it's illegal to discriminate on the
basis of physical disability. I sort of imagined it as being a hanging
offense in Canada.



Actually, Scott, you'll be happy to know (I assume) that in many ways the US
is well ahead of Canada in terms of the rights of people with disabilities.

I'm not sure, but BCITORGB might be talking about intellectual disabilities,
rather than physical disabilities.


==============
Correct, I was.
===============


frtzw906
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frtzw906
 
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KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization



Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the
same).


=========================
Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted
category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't
even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from
school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she,
always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University
has been a godsend for her.
====================



and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has
a disabled sister.



Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled.

Why?


=================
Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know.
===============================

frtzw906
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Scott Weiser
 
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A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization



Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the
same).


It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which
create problems.


=========================
Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted
category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't
even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from
school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she,
always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University
has been a godsend for her.
====================


This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very
early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how
bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with
their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their
parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously
isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on
academics to the exclusion of socialization.

Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it
takes parental complicity.




and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she has
a disabled sister.



Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled.

Why?


=================
Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know.
===============================


Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully
realize their *intellectual* potential. If they are unchallenged by ordinary
educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their
intellect suffers. At the same time, gifted children also need socialization
time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to
grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that
may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the
"green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage
so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as
intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted
students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they
can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a
motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity.

Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for
their disabilities, but most of all they need socialization with others to
learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special,
disabled-only classes. In such classes, what socialization they learn is how
to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else.
This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just
physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and
isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends
with non-disabled children.

Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children. It only
exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for
non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's
benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships
with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before
prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
for all children friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people
WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser



  #6   Report Post  
KMAN
 
Posts: n/a
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in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/3/05 10:14 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization


Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the
same).


It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which
create problems.


=========================
Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted
category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't
even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from
school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she,
always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University
has been a godsend for her.
====================


This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very
early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how
bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with
their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their
parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously
isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on
academics to the exclusion of socialization.

Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it
takes parental complicity.


Actually, once kids reach adolescense, the fact that they were well
socialized at an early age seems to matter very little, in terms of the
experiences of gifted children and children with intellectual disabilities.
The high school experience results in abuse and isolation, even if
physically integrated with other kids.

and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she
has
a disabled sister.


Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled.

Why?


=================
Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know.
===============================


Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully
realize their *intellectual* potential.


And you don't think a student with an intellectual disability needs
specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize his/her intellectual
potential? Don't you think it would be even more important for that student
than the student who is gifted, given that the student who is gifted is
likely bound for many more years of formal educational opportunities, where
as the student who has an intellectual disability is likely to complete
their formal education at the end of high school?

If they are unchallenged by ordinary
educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their
intellect suffers.


What do you think is happening to the intellect of the student with an
intellectual disability who is forced to sit through an irrelevant
curriculum? What do you think is happening to their behaviour? How do you
think it impacts on them to be sitting in a classroom with a curriculum that
doesn't meet their needs, being bored, and being disruptive. Do you think
that earns them a whole pile of non-disabled peers who invite them out on
dates for Saturday night?

At the same time, gifted children also need socialization
time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to
grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that
may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the
"green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage
so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as
intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted
students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they
can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a
motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity.

Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for
their disabilities


If you mean they need learning opportunities that are appropriate to their
needs, that is certainly true.

but most of all they need socialization with others to
learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special,
disabled-only classes.


Do you have evidence that they learn these socialization skills through
being placed in classes where the curriculum is directed to everyone but
them?

In such classes, what socialization they learn is how
to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else.


You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if
the results are as you expect.

What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.

They also need a curriculum that meets their needs - learning how to use the
public transportation system and how to manage money. The need help with the
challenge of a world that deals in abstraction, places importantance on
sequencing, requires the ability to read the emotional states of others, and
the ability to understand various social contexts and apply appropriate
behaviours - all areas where people with intellectual disabilities
experience severe learning difficulties.

None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class, and in fact, you
probably could not come up with a more cruel environment. I submit very
little is being taught about socialization either. What is happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.

This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just
physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and
isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends
with non-disabled children.


Do you have evidence that this happens as a result of being placed in the
mainstream classroom?

To develop a friendship, mutual respect is required. It's hard to develop
the respect of your non-disabled peers if you are sitting in algebra class
doing self-stimulation to pass the time as concepts totally irrelevant to
you and of no benefit to your future are discussed, and the rest of the
class points at you and comes up with insulting nicknames.

Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children.


I agree. Don't hide them. Give them a curriculum that meets their needs and
make sure that their achievements are celebrated as loudly and proudly as
anyone else in the school.

It only
exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for
non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's
benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships
with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before
prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads.


This works quite well in elementary school, but starting in middle school
and by the time of high school it doesn't work, and part of the reason is
simply that for the non-disabled students, the purpose of high school is to
move on to the next academic step (university or college) which is not the
destination for students with intellectual disabilities. They need a
curriculum that is focused on giving them the most tools possible to enjoy a
meaningful and contributing existence in the post-school world. Sitting in
classrooms and spacing out while someone else's curriculum is delivered
won't accomplish this.

Ensuring an inclusive school environment for all is very important, but
putting kids with disabilities into a classroom that is delivering a
curriculum that does not meet their needs for the misguided purpose of
offering "socialization" is a fool's game. And it is the person with the
disability that suffers.

Now, if you are talking about a person who happens to use a wheelchair but
is perfectly capable of benefitting from the Grade 12 chemistry curriculum,
then by all means, that's where they belong, not in some separate classroom
doing the same work but separated from their non-disabled peers.





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BCITORGB
 
Posts: n/a
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KMAN contributes:
===============
You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see
if
the results are as you expect.

What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than
anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They
want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who
spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.

They also need a curriculum that meets their needs....

None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class... What is
happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his
pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an
environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone
else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all
sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.
=================

WOW! KMAN, your insights are bang-on.

frtzw906

  #8   Report Post  
KMAN
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"BCITORGB" wrote in message
oups.com...
KMAN contributes:
===============
You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see
if
the results are as you expect.

What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than
anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They
want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who
spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.

They also need a curriculum that meets their needs....

None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class... What is
happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his
pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an
environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone
else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all
sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.
=================

WOW! KMAN, your insights are bang-on.

frtzw906


Only because I have been involved with people with intellectual disabilities
and their families for almost twenty years in a variety of capacities -
particularly...listening.



  #9   Report Post  
Scott Weiser
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/3/05 10:14 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization


Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in
the
same).


It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which
create problems.


=========================
Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted
category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't
even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from
school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she,
always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University
has been a godsend for her.
====================


This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very
early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how
bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with
their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their
parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously
isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on
academics to the exclusion of socialization.

Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it
takes parental complicity.


Actually, once kids reach adolescense, the fact that they were well
socialized at an early age seems to matter very little, in terms of the
experiences of gifted children and children with intellectual disabilities.
The high school experience results in abuse and isolation, even if
physically integrated with other kids.


I'll grant you that high school is a cruel place, but it's a lot less cruel
if a large proportion of the students have grown up with disabled
schoolmates. It takes time, of course, to change the culture.


and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she
has
a disabled sister.


Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled.

Why?

=================
Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know.
===============================


Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully
realize their *intellectual* potential.


And you don't think a student with an intellectual disability needs
specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize his/her intellectual
potential?


I believe I said that just below. However, their needs are different.

Don't you think it would be even more important for that student
than the student who is gifted, given that the student who is gifted is
likely bound for many more years of formal educational opportunities, where
as the student who has an intellectual disability is likely to complete
their formal education at the end of high school?


It depends in part on the nature of the disability.


If they are unchallenged by ordinary
educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their
intellect suffers.


What do you think is happening to the intellect of the student with an
intellectual disability who is forced to sit through an irrelevant
curriculum? What do you think is happening to their behaviour? How do you
think it impacts on them to be sitting in a classroom with a curriculum that
doesn't meet their needs, being bored, and being disruptive. Do you think
that earns them a whole pile of non-disabled peers who invite them out on
dates for Saturday night?


Nobody said it was easy. Still, mainstreaming disabled students is better
for them, and for their peers, and for society, than hiding them away in
"special" schools. We tried that model. It doesn't work.


At the same time, gifted children also need socialization
time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to
grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that
may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the
"green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage
so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as
intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted
students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they
can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a
motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity.

Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for
their disabilities


If you mean they need learning opportunities that are appropriate to their
needs, that is certainly true.


Yup.


but most of all they need socialization with others to
learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special,
disabled-only classes.


Do you have evidence that they learn these socialization skills through
being placed in classes where the curriculum is directed to everyone but
them?


It depends on the individual student, the particular class, and the specific
needs of the disabled student. It may well require additional teaching aides
to help the disabled student keep up. It may require special teaching
techniques and tools. It may even require modifying the *whole* curriculum
so that the "normal" students participate in ways which help the disabled
students through. Peer mentoring has had some success.

It's a matter of tailoring the classroom to the students, not tailoring the
students to the classroom, which is a fundamental paradigm shift for most
public schools.


In such classes, what socialization they learn is how
to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else.


You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if
the results are as you expect.


You might want to not make assumptions about what I know about the subject.


What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.


Yup. I agree. And they find those peer groups not just among the disabled,
but among ordinary students in a non-discriminatory environment.


They also need a curriculum that meets their needs - learning how to use the
public transportation system and how to manage money.


Yup, but not until they are older. We're talking about young children here,
remember.

The need help with the
challenge of a world that deals in abstraction, places importantance on
sequencing, requires the ability to read the emotional states of others, and
the ability to understand various social contexts and apply appropriate
behaviours - all areas where people with intellectual disabilities
experience severe learning difficulties.


Yup. No argument there. They do need help in those areas beyond what an
ordinary student would.



None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class,


Correct. What's taught in Chemistry is chemistry. Plenty of disabled
students are capable of learning chemistry. Physics, too. Just look at
Stephen Hawking.

and in fact, you
probably could not come up with a more cruel environment.


Learning to deal with peer cruelty is also a necessary skill.

I submit very
little is being taught about socialization either.


That may be true, but that is the fault of the educators and the people who
oversee them (like the parents) not the student. So fix the problem.

What is happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.


I find the way that you stereotype all "kids with disabilities." Very
diverse of you.


This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just
physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and
isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends
with non-disabled children.


Do you have evidence that this happens as a result of being placed in the
mainstream classroom?


Sure. It happens all the time.


To develop a friendship, mutual respect is required. It's hard to develop
the respect of your non-disabled peers if you are sitting in algebra class
doing self-stimulation to pass the time as concepts totally irrelevant to
you and of no benefit to your future are discussed, and the rest of the
class points at you and comes up with insulting nicknames.


Stereotyping. What about the "disabled" kid who is perfectly normal
intellectually, but was paralyzed in a car accident and can't move anything
below her neck? Do you think she is going to be "self-stimulating" rather
than learning algebra?

You really need to examine your anti-disability prejudices a bit.


Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children.


I agree. Don't hide them. Give them a curriculum that meets their needs and
make sure that their achievements are celebrated as loudly and proudly as
anyone else in the school.


You falsely presume that the only curriculum that they "need" is specialized
life-skills training. Disabled kids need to learn math, science, english and
all the things any child needs to learn.

Yes, they may need MORE help, and specialized life-skills training *in
addition* to their regular schooling, but that doesn't mean they should be
excluded from mainstream society.


It only
exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for
non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's
benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships
with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before
prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads.


This works quite well in elementary school, but starting in middle school
and by the time of high school it doesn't work,


I disagree. How well it works in high school depends entirely on how much
importance parents, teachers, students and the community as a whole puts on
tolerance, diversity and empathy for the disabled.

and part of the reason is
simply that for the non-disabled students, the purpose of high school is to
move on to the next academic step (university or college) which is not the
destination for students with intellectual disabilities.


Most high schools are little more than a 4 year holding pattern wherein
children go through puberty and learn social skills. That being the case,
one of the skills they need to learn is how to get along with the disabled.
If they don't learn it then, they will grow up to be bigoted, intolerant
"abilitists" who stereotype, demean and marginalize the disabled.

They need a
curriculum that is focused on giving them the most tools possible to enjoy a
meaningful and contributing existence in the post-school world. Sitting in
classrooms and spacing out while someone else's curriculum is delivered
won't accomplish this.


Stereotyping.


Ensuring an inclusive school environment for all is very important, but
putting kids with disabilities into a classroom that is delivering a
curriculum that does not meet their needs for the misguided purpose of
offering "socialization" is a fool's game.


No, it's a game of compassion and diversity that every child needs to learn,
if for no other reason than the "there but by the grace of God go I" lesson.

And it is the person with the
disability that suffers.


Not necessarily. Not if the community is compassionate and supportive.


Now, if you are talking about a person who happens to use a wheelchair but
is perfectly capable of benefitting from the Grade 12 chemistry curriculum,
then by all means, that's where they belong, not in some separate classroom
doing the same work but separated from their non-disabled peers.


The problem with your argument is that it makes grossly erroneous
presumptions about "the disabled" and their abilities.

--
Regards,
Scott Weiser

"I love the Internet, I no longer have to depend on
friends, family and co-workers, I can annoy people WORLDWIDE!" TM

© 2005 Scott Weiser

  #10   Report Post  
KMAN
 
Posts: n/a
Default

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/5/05 12:51 AM:

A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote:

in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/3/05 10:14 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization


Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in
the
same).

It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which
create problems.


=========================
Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted
category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't
even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from
school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she,
always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University
has been a godsend for her.
====================

This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very
early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how
bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with
their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their
parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously
isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on
academics to the exclusion of socialization.

Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it
takes parental complicity.


Actually, once kids reach adolescense, the fact that they were well
socialized at an early age seems to matter very little, in terms of the
experiences of gifted children and children with intellectual disabilities.
The high school experience results in abuse and isolation, even if
physically integrated with other kids.


I'll grant you that high school is a cruel place, but it's a lot less cruel
if a large proportion of the students have grown up with disabled
schoolmates. It takes time, of course, to change the culture.


You won't change the culture by having people with intellectual disabilities
sitting in a classroom while a curriculum targeted at everyone but them is
followed. This just wrongly teaches the other kids that the students with
intellectual disabilities are useless and at best are to be patronized as
pets. To earn the respect of their non-disabled peers they need their own
curriculum tailored to their needs where they can experience and demonstrate
success.

and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in
public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she
has
a disabled sister.


Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are
disabled.

Why?

=================
Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know.
===============================

Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully
realize their *intellectual* potential.


And you don't think a student with an intellectual disability needs
specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize his/her intellectual
potential?


I believe I said that just below. However, their needs are different.


Everyone needs a learning program that meets their needs. A high school kid
with an intellectual disability needs a curriculum to prepare them for life
after high school, not wasting time sitting in the back of a chemistry class
picking their nose.

Don't you think it would be even more important for that student
than the student who is gifted, given that the student who is gifted is
likely bound for many more years of formal educational opportunities, where
as the student who has an intellectual disability is likely to complete
their formal education at the end of high school?


It depends in part on the nature of the disability.


I'm talking about intellectual disabilities.


If they are unchallenged by ordinary
educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their
intellect suffers.


What do you think is happening to the intellect of the student with an
intellectual disability who is forced to sit through an irrelevant
curriculum? What do you think is happening to their behaviour? How do you
think it impacts on them to be sitting in a classroom with a curriculum that
doesn't meet their needs, being bored, and being disruptive. Do you think
that earns them a whole pile of non-disabled peers who invite them out on
dates for Saturday night?


Nobody said it was easy. Still, mainstreaming disabled students is better
for them, and for their peers, and for society, than hiding them away in
"special" schools. We tried that model. It doesn't work.


I haven't said a thing about a special school.

And, frankly, the special school model is very old and was done at a time
when a person with an intellectual disability being in school at all was
considered progressive.

Every student needs a curriculum that is right for them. Sticking a kid in a
class that is not intended for their learning needs for five years is just
the pre-abandonment phase for the lousy quality of life that will follow and
the kids they were sitting with have moved on to post-secondary education
and/or jobs.

At the same time, gifted children also need socialization
time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to
grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that
may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the
"green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage
so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as
intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted
students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they
can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a
motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity.

Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for
their disabilities


If you mean they need learning opportunities that are appropriate to their
needs, that is certainly true.


Yup.


They won't get it sitting in a class with a curriculum that has nothing to
do with their needs or abilities.


but most of all they need socialization with others to
learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special,
disabled-only classes.


Do you have evidence that they learn these socialization skills through
being placed in classes where the curriculum is directed to everyone but
them?


It depends on the individual student, the particular class, and the specific
needs of the disabled student. It may well require additional teaching aides
to help the disabled student keep up.


Oh, what great socialization that is. So the rest of the class follows the
teacher at the front doing their Grade 12 lessons, and the kid at the back
sits in the corner with a TA doing his Grade 2 lessons. Yessir, that will
develop a profound mutual respect and open up all sorts of social
opportunities.

It may require special teaching
techniques and tools. It may even require modifying the *whole* curriculum
so that the "normal" students participate in ways which help the disabled
students through. Peer mentoring has had some success.


Ah, yes, the kids that are trying to get an A in Grade 12 chemistry so they
can get into college will have their curriculum altered, and the teacher
will stray from the curriculum to take time to include the kid with the
intellectual disability. It's no problem if the chemistry curriculum doesn't
get done and the kids don't get into college. Nobody will mind.

It's a matter of tailoring the classroom to the students, not tailoring the
students to the classroom, which is a fundamental paradigm shift for most
public schools.


Good luck with that. As early as Grade 9 high school kids are being hammered
(as are their teachers) with the need for high grades to get into college.
That's what high school is for most students - preparation for the next
stage of schooling. For students who aren't going on to post-secondary
education, they need their own curriculum to prepare them for their own next
step, not a watered down peanut gallery version of somebody else's
curriculum.


In such classes, what socialization they learn is how
to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else.


You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if
the results are as you expect.


You might want to not make assumptions about what I know about the subject.


Well, you are so far off in dreamland (for a guy who loves to acuse others
of utopian thinking) that you clearly need a reality check.


What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.


Yup. I agree. And they find those peer groups not just among the disabled,
but among ordinary students in a non-discriminatory environment.


You aren't going to find that sitting in the Grade 12 chemistry class,
sticking out like a sore thumb and being humiliated by an environment that
has no relevance to you.

They also need a curriculum that meets their needs - learning how to use the
public transportation system and how to manage money.


Yup, but not until they are older. We're talking about young children here,
remember.


I'm talking about high school. I told you some time ago that "mainstreaming"
works quite well until about the end of elementary school.

The need help with the
challenge of a world that deals in abstraction, places importantance on
sequencing, requires the ability to read the emotional states of others, and
the ability to understand various social contexts and apply appropriate
behaviours - all areas where people with intellectual disabilities
experience severe learning difficulties.


Yup. No argument there. They do need help in those areas beyond what an
ordinary student would.


And they won't get it in the mainstream high school class, where the kids
are being prepared for the next step in their formal education.


None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class,


Correct. What's taught in Chemistry is chemistry. Plenty of disabled
students are capable of learning chemistry. Physics, too. Just look at
Stephen Hawking.


Stephen Hawking does not have an intellectual disability. I haven't been
talking about people with physical disabilities. Obviously there's no reason
why a student with a physical disability who has the same or higher
intellect than the other students in the Grade 12 chemistry class should not
be a competent and contributing member of that class just like anyone else
with those intellectual abilities.

and in fact, you
probably could not come up with a more cruel environment.


Learning to deal with peer cruelty is also a necessary skill.


Spend some time talking with kids who have been through it and see if they
learned that skill, or if instead they developed mental health issues that
ended up being more of a barrier for them than the intellectual disability
itself. Talk to the parents of those kids when their kids are in their 30s
and 40s and still haven't recovered from the damaged suffered.

The high school environment holds little relevancy for life after high
school. It's not worth deliberately forcing suffering on people just so they
can experience the suffering, given that they aren't going to experience the
special brand of high school suffering ever again.

I submit very
little is being taught about socialization either.


That may be true, but that is the fault of the educators and the people who
oversee them (like the parents) not the student. So fix the problem.


You could fix the problem by changing the purpose of high school for all the
kids, accomplished by elminating post-secondary education and competitive
employment.

What is happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.


I find the way that you stereotype all "kids with disabilities." Very
diverse of you.


I'm talking about students with intellectual disabilitiesin high school, and
have been throughout.

This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just
physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and
isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends
with non-disabled children.


Do you have evidence that this happens as a result of being placed in the
mainstream classroom?


Sure. It happens all the time.


How do you know?

To develop a friendship, mutual respect is required. It's hard to develop
the respect of your non-disabled peers if you are sitting in algebra class
doing self-stimulation to pass the time as concepts totally irrelevant to
you and of no benefit to your future are discussed, and the rest of the
class points at you and comes up with insulting nicknames.


Stereotyping. What about the "disabled" kid who is perfectly normal
intellectually


Obviously that's not who I am talking about. Give me a break.

but was paralyzed in a car accident and can't move anything
below her neck? Do you think she is going to be "self-stimulating" rather
than learning algebra?

You really need to examine your anti-disability prejudices a bit.


You need to stop being disingenuous. You know that's not who I am talking
about.


Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children.


I agree. Don't hide them. Give them a curriculum that meets their needs and
make sure that their achievements are celebrated as loudly and proudly as
anyone else in the school.


You falsely presume that the only curriculum that they "need" is specialized
life-skills training.


I never said that.

Disabled kids need to learn math, science, english and
all the things any child needs to learn.


Yes.

Yes, they may need MORE help, and specialized life-skills training *in
addition* to their regular schooling, but that doesn't mean they should be
excluded from mainstream society.


I want them included in mainstream society. This is accomplished by having a
curriculum that meets their needs, rather than sitting them in a Grade 12
chemistry class that is going to be of no benefit to having a better quality
of life when school is out. If they can't go anywhere because they can't use
the bus, can't buy anything because they can't use money, and have no social
life because they have no friends, then I submit that whatever else they
were doing was a complete waste of time.

It only
exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for
non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's
benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships
with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before
prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads.


This works quite well in elementary school, but starting in middle school
and by the time of high school it doesn't work,


I disagree. How well it works in high school depends entirely on how much
importance parents, teachers, students and the community as a whole puts on
tolerance, diversity and empathy for the disabled.


None of that helps a bit. There is no way to make Grade 12 chemistry
relevant for a person with an intellectual disability who still needs to
learn how to make change for a 20. It doesn't do a thing for either the
"regular" student or the "disabled" student to share a classroom environment
where it is obvious to all concerned that the student with a disability is
just filling up space.

and part of the reason is
simply that for the non-disabled students, the purpose of high school is to
move on to the next academic step (university or college) which is not the
destination for students with intellectual disabilities.


Most high schools are little more than a 4 year holding pattern wherein
children go through puberty and learn social skills. That being the case,
one of the skills they need to learn is how to get along with the disabled.
If they don't learn it then, they will grow up to be bigoted, intolerant
"abilitists" who stereotype, demean and marginalize the disabled.


That's exactly what they learn through mainstreaming, which is forcing the
person with a disability into an environment that does not meed their needs,
and puts them through 4 or 5 years of humiliation as everyone pretends they
are included in a curriculum that is totally irrelevant to their needs.

They need a
curriculum that is focused on giving them the most tools possible to enjoy a
meaningful and contributing existence in the post-school world. Sitting in
classrooms and spacing out while someone else's curriculum is delivered
won't accomplish this.


Stereotyping.


If you were reading at a Grade 2 level and still learning how to break a 20,
what would you do during algebra class? I'd space out as far as I could. Or
worse, I'd act out and do whatever I could to communicate "get me the hell
out of here." And that's what happens, one or the otther, or both. Does
wonders for socialization, yessir.


Ensuring an inclusive school environment for all is very important, but
putting kids with disabilities into a classroom that is delivering a
curriculum that does not meet their needs for the misguided purpose of
offering "socialization" is a fool's game.


No, it's a game of compassion and diversity that every child needs to learn,
if for no other reason than the "there but by the grace of God go I" lesson.


You won't teach it or learn it by sticking someone in an environment that
does nothing to meet their needs.

And it is the person with the
disability that suffers.


Not necessarily. Not if the community is compassionate and supportive.


If you compassionaltely and supportively force someone to endure a totally
irrelevant environment, they still suffer.

Now, if you are talking about a person who happens to use a wheelchair but
is perfectly capable of benefitting from the Grade 12 chemistry curriculum,
then by all means, that's where they belong, not in some separate classroom
doing the same work but separated from their non-disabled peers.


The problem with your argument is that it makes grossly erroneous
presumptions about "the disabled" and their abilities.


No, it doesn't. It speaks what they have to say for themselves. Sit down
with people with intellectual disabilities who endured mainstreaming in high
school and ask them about it. Try to find out what they learned. Ask them
how many friends they have from those mainstream classes.



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