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in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 4/3/05 10:14 PM:

A Usenet persona calling itself frtzw906 wrote:

KMAN picks up something I missed. Thanks:

As to the other daughter, being gifted, she is unlikely to have as many
problems with socialization

Are you nuts? That's one of the groups that has the most problems with
socialization! Worse than software engineers! (Although sometimes one in the
same).

It's not the kids who have problems, it's the parents and schools which
create problems.

=========================
Exactly! As I mentioned, one of my daughters fits into the gifted
category. One of the most heart-wrenching experiences for me (I can't
even imagine how it must have been for her!) was picking her up from
school with a couple hundred kids playing on the playground and she,
always, by herself with no friends. High school was a relief. University
has been a godsend for her.
====================

This is why it's imperative that children be carefully socialized very
early, beginning when they are babies and toddlers, so that no matter how
bright they are, they are still well able to communicate and interact with
their peers. The problem with "gifted" children tends to be that their
parents, in their zeal to advance their child's intellect, unconsciously
isolate their gifted children from their peers, usually by focusing on
academics to the exclusion of socialization.

Kids simply do not grow up to be socially isolated all by themselves, it
takes parental complicity.

Actually, once kids reach adolescense, the fact that they were well
socialized at an early age seems to matter very little, in terms of the
experiences of gifted children and children with intellectual disabilities.
The high school experience results in abuse and isolation, even if
physically integrated with other kids.

and will experience socialization at her new
school as well, and will receive a better education. Keeping her in public
school would be unfair to her, particularly so if its done *because* she
has
a disabled sister.

Explain again.

The child who is gifted is better off in a specialized environment with
other people who are gifted, but the child who has a disability is not
better off in a specialized environment with other people who are disabled.

Why?

=================
Excellent question. Gifted minds need to know.
===============================

Because gifted students need specialized teaching and stimulation to fully
realize their *intellectual* potential.

And you don't think a student with an intellectual disability needs
specialized teaching and stimulation to fully realize his/her intellectual
potential? Don't you think it would be even more important for that student
than the student who is gifted, given that the student who is gifted is
likely bound for many more years of formal educational opportunities, where
as the student who has an intellectual disability is likely to complete
their formal education at the end of high school?

If they are unchallenged by ordinary
educational curricula, they become bored and often disruptive and their
intellect suffers.

What do you think is happening to the intellect of the student with an
intellectual disability who is forced to sit through an irrelevant
curriculum? What do you think is happening to their behaviour? How do you
think it impacts on them to be sitting in a classroom with a curriculum that
doesn't meet their needs, being bored, and being disruptive. Do you think
that earns them a whole pile of non-disabled peers who invite them out on
dates for Saturday night?

At the same time, gifted children also need socialization
time with "ordinary" children, so that they can also learn how to come to
grips with their intellect and learn how to integrate into a society that
may try to exclude them out of jealousy or merely because they are the
"green monkey." Gifted children must learn how to put on social camouflage
so that they can associate successfully with those who may not be as
intellectually advanced. But these lessons are much easier for gifted
students to learn, in part because of their intellect, but also because they
can learn to "hide" their intellect when necessary. It's not like being in a
motorized wheelchair or having some physical deformity.

Disabled children also need specialized instruction to help compensate for
their disabilities

If you mean they need learning opportunities that are appropriate to their
needs, that is certainly true.

but most of all they need socialization with others to
learn the skills of living in the world that they cannot receive in special,
disabled-only classes.

Do you have evidence that they learn these socialization skills through
being placed in classes where the curriculum is directed to everyone but
them?

In such classes, what socialization they learn is how
to interact socially with other disabled children, not with everybody else.

You might want to learn more about what goes on when students with
intellectual disabilities are placed in the mainstream classes, and see if
the results are as you expect.

What most students with intellectual disabilities need more than anything is
a peer group, just like the rest of us sought out in high school. They want
peers they can relate to and they want friends - real friends - who spend
time with them on weekends and during the summer.

They also need a curriculum that meets their needs - learning how to use the
public transportation system and how to manage money. The need help with the
challenge of a world that deals in abstraction, places importantance on
sequencing, requires the ability to read the emotional states of others, and
the ability to understand various social contexts and apply appropriate
behaviours - all areas where people with intellectual disabilities
experience severe learning difficulties.

None of that is taught in a Grade 12 chemistry class, and in fact, you
probably could not come up with a more cruel environment. I submit very
little is being taught about socialization either. What is happening is the
kid with the disabilitiy is picking his nose and playing with his pecker,
which is in my view a toally appropriate response to being in an environment
that has absolutely no relevance, and an environment where everyone else
there can see that you are totally out of place and is reaching all sorts of
disparaging conclusions about you.

This leaves them with a deficit that can cripple them for life, not just
physically or mentally, but socially. It leads to feelings of exclusion and
isolation because they never have the opportunity to meet and make friends
with non-disabled children.

Do you have evidence that this happens as a result of being placed in the
mainstream classroom?

To develop a friendship, mutual respect is required. It's hard to develop
the respect of your non-disabled peers if you are sitting in algebra class
doing self-stimulation to pass the time as concepts totally irrelevant to
you and of no benefit to your future are discussed, and the rest of the
class points at you and comes up with insulting nicknames.

Hiding the disabled away is also harmful to non-disabled children.

I agree. Don't hide them. Give them a curriculum that meets their needs and
make sure that their achievements are celebrated as loudly and proudly as
anyone else in the school.

It only
exacerbates the "green monkey" syndrome and makes it much harder for
non-disabled children to accept those who are different. It is to everyone's
benefit that children be required to associate with and create relationships
with disabled children as early as possible. The earlier the better, before
prejudices, bigotry and bias rear their ugly heads.

This works quite well in elementary school, but starting in middle school
and by the time of high school it doesn't work, and part of the reason is
simply that for the non-disabled students, the purpose of high school is to
move on to the next academic step (university or college) which is not the
destination for students with intellectual disabilities. They need a
curriculum that is focused on giving them the most tools possible to enjoy a
meaningful and contributing existence in the post-school world. Sitting in
classrooms and spacing out while someone else's curriculum is delivered
won't accomplish this.

Ensuring an inclusive school environment for all is very important, but
putting kids with disabilities into a classroom that is delivering a
curriculum that does not meet their needs for the misguided purpose of
offering "socialization" is a fool's game. And it is the person with the
disability that suffers.

Now, if you are talking about a person who happens to use a wheelchair but
is perfectly capable of benefitting from the Grade 12 chemistry curriculum,
then by all means, that's where they belong, not in some separate classroom
doing the same work but separated from their non-disabled peers.