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in article , BCITORGB at
wrote on 3/1/05 5:31 PM: Tink, I'm fairly sure you didn't read this one: http://www.utoronto.ca/hpme/dhr/pdf/Barer-Lewis.pdf I quote: "In short, patients get on wait lists in Canada through a poorly understood, haphazard, unaudited, entirely private process largely controlled by individual physicians." The authors tell us that the notion of a waiting list and the notions of waiting and waiting times are hard to define. For example, when "exactly" does a patient (and, in this case, I don't care if it's in Canada, the USA, the UK, or whereever) get "on" a waiting list? Tink, when you call your family doctor, and the receptionist informs you that you can come in on Thursday, you're on a waiting list (if this is a day other than Thursday). But what is particularly interesting in the statement in question is the part about it being an "entirely private process largely controlled by individual physicians." So, no big bad government determining who gets to wait. It is the physician, using his/her best knowledge, who determines the nature of our wait. I think this is exactly what KMAN, Michael, and I have been trying to say. Doctors in Canada operate privately. Tink, your source goes on to say: "Wait times tend to be, in statistical jargon, highly skewed. This means that very long waits are the exception. A few long waits can have the same misleading effect on wait time statistics as a few palatial mansions on average housing prices." NOTE: "very long waits are the exception" To complete that thought, the authors say: "But in the world of selling papers and tv advertising spots, the exception often makes the story. This gets an unassuming public understandably concerned, playing nicely into the hands of those seeking to get more money into the system." Is that not EXACTLY what KMAN has been saying? This is hype! NOW READ THIS CAREFULLY (IT TAKES THE CANADIAN PULSE): "Some recent Canadian research has found that not all patients are unhappy about waiting. Very few patients who felt waits were "too long" wanted to see additional public funds used to reduce wait times (although this may be related to the procedures they were waiting for and may also now be changing, as Canadians seem increasingly concerned about access to care). Fewer still seemed interested in shelling out extra money personally to reduce their wait time." NOTE CAREFULLY: "Fewer still seemed interested in shelling out extra money personally to reduce their wait time." That's us, cheap Canadians (just ask the folks in Florida)! Anyway, Tink, thanks for the link. It goes on, and on, and on, supporting KMAN's points. frtzw906 Dang. I owe Tinkerntom and apology. I never should have assumed he understood the information he was posting. Sorry Tinkerntom! |
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"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article et, rick at wrote on 3/1/05 5:12 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 6:49 PM: snip Is there a coroner's report that says Mr X. died because he was waiting? ===================== Read the sites fool. As you know, patient info is not released. There are stories about health care issues in the media all the time. Something as serious as someone dying while waiting for care would definitely make the front page. ================== It has before fool. Never. Prove it. ======================= Yes, fool. Try some researchof you own. You made the claim. I've done it. It hasn't happened, save for your weasel imagination. =================================== OK If you have done the research, then you should be able to refute the facts, eh liar? Still claiming no one waits for treatment in Canada? Still afraid to read the facts, liar? |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article et, rick at wrote on 3/1/05 5:15 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. ============== Of course you did. You don't like the truth, it hurts too much, right? Has he proven it? ================= Yes... For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. ================== ROTFLMAO Waiting doesn't kill tghem fool! The desease is what kills them. Sometimes because they don't get the treatment they need. You've provided no evidence of this. -================= Yes, I have, many times now. that you are too afraid to read facts is your problem. liar. |
in article , Scott Weiser at
wrote on 3/1/05 5:38 PM: A Usenet persona calling itself KMAN wrote: Could you give me a short list so that I can understand what type of communities you are speaking of? Thanks, TnT Howsabout the Amish? Can you certify that there are no guns in Amish communities? Can you prevent me from taking a gun into an Amish community? No, but as I understand the Amish would rather throw themselves in front of your bullets until you run out of ammo than become a gun culture themselves. You merely demonstrate how little you understand, about the Amish or guns. And frankly I don't think a lot of Amish are getting shot - by internal shooters or external shooters. Cites? They aren't real big on tooting their own horn, I can't find much, just stuff like http://www.manythings.org/voa/00/001002tia_t.htm which I would not offer as evidence of anything. But I don't want to seem as though I was offering myself as an expert on the Amish, it was intended as humorous since I assumed everyone would share a knowledge of the stereotype of the Amish as a non-violent community. |
KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message ups.com... KMAN wrote: ...snipsss... My apologies for being unclear Tinkerntom. Can I please try again? Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? If you will excuse and accept the following babble? I deleted it. Has he proven it? Yes, he provided evidence, and there was other evidence available! For example, did a coroner's inquiry say "Person X died while waiting for health care, and if the health care system had not responded so slowly, she'd still be alive?" Yes, read about Diane Gorsuch below! That fact that a person was on a waiting list for something and died doesn't mean that caused the death. He never claimed that! If so show me Date and Time of rick's post! I am to tired to search any longer myself, having read and reread probably 100 less than inspiring epistles by you two. Has rick PROVEN to you that Canadians are dying waiting for health care? Yes, ask and answered previously and below! Please note (in case not obvious) this means that it was the waiting that caused them to die. Now you are changing the question, rick never claimed this. He claimed that people died while their name was on a waiting list, waiting for a test or procedure that could have saved their life. They still might have lost their life, even if they had the procedure, because these were seriously ill individuals with life threatening illness, usually cardiac or ontology, but that is a different issue entirely! Before your deleted it, did you read it? Your promise was posted as follows; Feb 22, 7:03 am "Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology." Feb 22, 2:02 pm "Please provide a link to the message in which you posted a Canadian reference (or any reference) that proves Canadians have died in wait lines for health care, and I will make a formal and public apology." 1) http://www.cp.org/english/online/ful...D052306AU.html 2) http://canada.medbroadcast.com/healt...&news_ id=755 3) http://www.manpc.mb.ca/03042003.htm 4) http://chealth.canoe.ca/health_news_...1&news_id=8195 The case of Diane Gorsuch a Canadian, provided an example of a person dying while on a wait list, waiting for a life saving operation that could have saved her life if administered in a timely fashion, but after two years of waiting, she died. Evidently the life saving operation was cancelled and rescheduled a number of times. Her death would have been handled by a coroner, and in addition to her death, two other deaths were accounted for at the same time that was the result of being on a wait list for and untimely period. These cases resulted in much public and media outcry, and the eventual revamping of the Ontario Medical system, and in particular the management of those on wait lists. 5) In addition, 11 people died according to the following link! http://www.manpc.mb.ca/02092004.htm The review of the cardiac care program, done by Edmonton heart surgeon Dr. Arvind Koshal was prompted after 11 people died while waiting for cardiac surgery in the province 6) In addition, 50 people died according to the following link out of 8000 in the study group. This report is much more statistical for those so inclined (frtwz). http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/167/11/1233 The risks of waiting for cardiac catheterization: a prospective study In this prospective registry of over 8000 patients referred for cardiac catheterization in 1998-2000 in the Central-South Region of Ontario, the median waiting time was 6 days for inpatients and 60 days for outpatients. Only 37% of patients received the procedure within the time requested by the referring physician. The overall incidence of major cardiac events was 1.4%, with 50 deaths during a median wait of 27 days. In a retrospective study of 871 patients in Manitoba referred for cardiac catheterization in 1981-1982, the incidence rates of cardiac arrest, acute MI, death and emergency admission during a mean waiting time of 4.2 weeks were 0.5%, 0.9%, 0.4%, and 3.7% respectively KMAN, I never saw a post by rick saying that people are dying because the wait list/line some how rises up and kills them, or bores them to death, or however else a person would become a mortality statistic because their name is on the wait list/line which caused the death. I have seen where rick said that people in Canada have died while their name is on the wait list for a particular test or procedure. The key words being "because, and while." You only in this prior post have expanded your question to include the "because" part of the statement, unless you can show me date and time of a previous post by you where you clearly use the word because, in the context of your claim that people are not dying because their name is on a wait list/line! In your request to me previously when you ask me to vote, you also requested me to certify whether rick had, or had not supported his claim that people were dying while on the wait list/lines. I have provided the above links, and the links I posted previously. Unless you were playing sematical games with list/line and because/while, then I believe you owe rick a public apology, as well as the rest of us whose time you have been twiddling with. If you are unable to suck up and apologize, then you are the one playing nutty weasel, and I leave you to play in the sandbox with yourself, unless rick chooses to come torment you longer. In that case, you deserve everything he dishes out. In addition I would have to seriously determine to consider your future posts as trash, and not worth the time to entertain anything you have to say. He has you in Check, you can't Castle, since you have moved your Rooks, your out of pawns, Bishops, Knights, Queen, and it is Checkmate time! I have played enough Chess to know the feeling, but you are better to go down in dignity, and play again, than to cheat, and noone will play with you after that! TnT |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article et, rick at wrote on 3/1/05 5:18 PM: "KMAN" wrote in message . .. "rick" wrote in message k.net... "KMAN" wrote in message ... in article , rick at wrote on 2/28/05 7:06 PM: "rick" wrote in message ink.net... "KMAN" wrote in message snippage... Or are you going to be consistent and be a liar and a coward on this issue as well? ==================== Anything you open your mouth about, like Canadians never waiting for treatment. I never said that. Every health care system requires that people wait. ========================== Yes, you did liar. Do try to keep up with your own spews, dolt. What part of your claim: "...No one is waiting for treatment..." don't you undersatnd? You said it fool, 2/20/2005 Big lie there fool... Never said it. Prove that I did. ================ See above fool. You made the claim, liar. Why none of your pithy spews here, fool? Finally realixed how stupid you really are, and how much you lie? Post the entire quote, and reference it, weasel. ============================ "...No one is waiting for treatment..." That's is a quote by you fool. feb 20, 2005. That you are still too stupid to fully use your computer is no surprise, liar. Post the entire quote. ================== What I posted stands by itself. You lied. "...No one is waiting for treatment..." Still afraid to look things up for yourself, eh liar? Only a scumbag posts the middle of a quote with no context or reference. ========================== It wasn't from the middle, liar, it was'nt out of context, liar. I provided the the reference by date and time you said it, liar. Thanks for proving yet again that lies are all you have, since the facts are not on your side. |
in article 1109720434.03b3168c32f67714ee50a03e0f85d73b@terane ws, Nisarel at
wrote on 3/1/05 6:40 PM: "BCITORGB" wrote: Nisarel says: ================ Fraser Institute: a far-right wing ideological think tank that is not known for unbiased research. =============== This was pointed out much earlier in this thread, but the right-wing fundamentalists here refuse to accept that characterization. As I've pointed out to them: check their funding to see whose ass they're kissing. Yep. But their research and position on marijuana was quite atypical. They support the legalization of it. That's not atypical. They don't like that marijuana sellers get to escape the brutal taxes the rest of us pay. |
"KMAN" wrote in message ... in article et, rick at wrote on 3/1/05 5:20 PM: snip... Here, let me restore your dishonesty again, liar.. "No, you brought up the "need" of an object being the determination whether or not people should have them. You lost, again, and now have you resort to your ignorant spews... checkmate, proven liar..." What is the need for assault weapons to the general public? It's a valid question. They are only useful for spraying bullets. Why else do you need them? In response to this YOU brought up the fact that people get killed by cars. But cars have many other valid and valuable purposes. ================ So do weapons. What are the valuable purposes of assault weapons that are comparable to the valuable purposes of cars? ======================== LOL Tap, tap, tap. First it's does it have a need? As if 'need' is the determenat as to whether an object can be owned. Now it's a 'valuable' need! You really don't have a clue, do you, liarman. When you going to read the facts about the claims you have made about health care, liar? |
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