BoatBanter.com - Bill Moyers on environment, politics and Christian fundamentalists

Tinkerntom wrote:
KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 4/1/05 11:40 PM:

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
ups.com...

KMAN wrote:
in article
,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/31/05 11:07 PM:

That I believe in my God, should give
you pause that my promotion is not fake

Not in the least.

and worth serious
consideration since the potential alternative is
eternal
loss!
TnT

Wrong again.

Your choice to be blind is your choice, and is a
reflection
of
my
being
wrong, only in your eyes.

Oops. Faulty logic.

Not in the least, you make choices independent of me, even
before
you
knew me, you had made your choices. So whether I am right
or
wrong
is
not a factor in your choice. That I appear wrong to you is
a
function
of the choices you have already made and how those choices
affect
the
vision of your eyes, and not necessarily how I am.

Whoops, maybe you should pay attention before you flap off.
At
least
wait
for the explanation before pretending to listen.

You said "That I believe in my God, should give you pause
that
my
promotion
is not fake"

This does not follow.

If you believe in God, or that pigs fly, or that the core
of
the
earth is
made of strawberry ice cream, this does not in the least
influence
my

thinking regarding the veracity of your claim.

See, now here is the point where a comment would have been
expected:
following the explanation.

I'm still waiting, was there an esplanation in there
somewhere?
for
the
choices you make? whether I am right or not? whether that
makes
any
difference or not? Don't want to be flappen' off so I guess I
will
listen awhile longer!

I'll try again. Please pay attention, and please try to
directly
address
what I say without breaking into godspeak or other forms of
irrelevant
babble.

You said: "That I believe in my God, should give you pause
that
my
promotion
is not fake"

I assure you that it gives me no such pause, and not because
your
godtalk
appears to be mainly derived in some sort of psychological
disorder.

The reason it gives me no such pause is that it does not
follow.

Whether you are telling me about your belief in "god" or your
belief
in pigs
that fly or your belief that the core of the earth is made of
celery,
the
fact that you believe one or all of those things to be true
has
absolutely
no influence whatsoever with regard to whether or not they are
actually
true.

If you come across a street corner preacher and he tells you
(and
you
believe that he believes it) that the world is ending
tomorrow,
does
that
fact that he believes it score any points with you in making a
determination
as to whether or not the world is really going to end
tomorrow?

Do you understand what I am saying now?

Hello? Anyone home Tinkerntom?

Do you understand what I am saying? You acknowledged that you
did
not
really believe in your fake god, and hence the fake promotion.
You
would not expect anyone to take your God seriously, or give your
promotion in serious consideration, especially since you do not!

I was trying to illustrate for you how ridiculous it all is.

However if someone is sincere, and is promoting there God in a
sincere
fashion, then it seems to me that you would pause and seriously
consider even for a moment, whether there is any need for you to
pay
more attention.

I'll try again.

First step, forget about the Oprah example. Clearly you did not get
the
point of all that, and that's fine. Move on.

Now...

If you come across a street corner preacher and he tells you (and
you
believe that he believes it) that the world is ending tomorrow,
does
that
fact that he believes it score any points with you in making a
determination
as to whether or not the world is really going to end tomorrow?

I've never questioned your sincerity, Tinkerntom, and that's not a
factor,
just as I am sure it would not be a factor for you with the
doomsday
preacher on the corner.

If you then decided that no there was nothing there in
this sincere promotion for you to believe, then you move on. That
is
different than just dispatching whatever you hear to the trash
bin
without even considering it because your mind is already made up.
That
is all I was suggesting, whether you believe or not is still up
to
you,
and I would not be proposing that you should drop whatever you
are
doing at the sound of every street corner preacher and roll up
into
a
sniveling little ball because the world is ending tomorrow.

Then I think we understand each other.

If Tinkerntom sincerely believes the sky is falling or that an
invisible man
tells him what to do, the veracity of those assertions is not
strengthened
for me in the least by the fact that Tinkerntom sincerely believes
it
to be
true.

And that is where all this started, back there with
making
a
choice.

The choice being I can share your delusions or not share
your
delusions.
While it might be fun to share your delusions, and to an
extent
it
was
enjoyable pretending to have a god creation of my own for
a
while,
I
am not
interested in living a lie, and therefore reject your
offer
to
join
in your
state of delusion.

You obviosly have made your choice!

Thank you.

I will continue to pray for you! TnT

And announcing that you will do that will continue to show
that
you
are an
aggressive hateful person.

I may not be your typical milktoast Christian. I may be
agressive
in
presenting what I believe, and being willing to come in
here
to
an
open
forum and stand toe to toe with you, and not back down from
what
I
believe

I don't want you to back down from what you believe. Never
asked
you
to,
never will.

and be willing to take a few good shots myself, and come
back
for more. I understand that Christianity is more than able
to
withstand
and understand the best you can hit us with. However that
does
not
make
me hateful of you.

It is as hateful as insisting on calling a black person a
******.

I don't recall saying anything about calling folks names.

I don't recall saying anything about calling folks names
either.

I am talking about the hatred inherent in your actions.

I think I said I would be praying for you.

Yes, you did. I have told you that I do not appreciate this. I
find
it
repulsive, in fact.

While you can obviously do whatever nutty god stuff you want,
the
fact that
you choose to announce to me that which you know I find
offensive
shows your
religion to be exactly what religion is all about - hatred
against
those who
refuse to believe as you do.

Of course you being your own god

More aggression.

can
look into my heart and know that I am praying for you because
I
am
a
hateful person. That makes a lot of sense.

I have explained to you that I do not share your belief
system.
That
you
continue to deliberately include me in your belief system
despite
my
expressed wishes to the contrary shows you to be a hateful
person.

I don't need to look into your heart. I've told you that
including
me
in
your belief system is offensive to me. Your announcements that
you
are
"praying for me" (announcements that usually come when you are
at
a
logical
dead end) is nothing but raw aggression and hatred.

Hateful of your sin yes, but I have stood where you
are at, and thrown insults and jibes at the Christian, so I
can
say
I
understand to some degree where you are at, but that does
not
mean
I
hate you.

I do not know if you hate me, but you are hateful.

A person is hateful because you annouce that they are
hateful!
You
really are getting off onto this trip of being your own god.

You are flapping off again and refusing to listen to what is
really
quite a
straightforward explanation.

I have explained to you that I do not share your belief
system.
That
you
continue to deliberately include me in your belief system
despite
my
expressed wishes to the contrary shows you to be a hateful
person.

I've told you that including me in your belief system is
offensive
to
me.
Your announcements that you are "praying for me"
(announcements
that
usually
come when you are at a logical dead end) is nothing but raw
aggression and
hatred.

I have seen this type of aggression at other times from
godtalkers
like
yourself. I see it used most frequently against traditional
targets
of
religious hatred, such as homosexuals. The religified person
seeks
to
dehumanize the gay person by labelling them as "sick" and
shares
their
"love" for the "sick" person by announcing they will "pray for
them."

This is nothing but thinly disguised aggression. It really
means
"I
hate gay
people and I want you to know that I hate you."

You are doing the same thing Tinkerntom. I have received the
message,
Tinkerntom. You are filled with hatred towards me.

Am I wrong? We'll see. Given your knowledge about how I feel
about
being
included in your religious belief system, if you continue to
do
it,
that
proves your hatred beyond a doubt.

Anymore than you hate SW or rich or anyone else you may
disagree with, and probably a whole lot less. May I even
suggest
that
I feel compasssion for you as I get to know you better, and
my
willingness to pray for you is a mark of my compassion. TnT

No, it's a measure of your hate.

And now compassion is a measure of hate. You have been
smoking
some
stong grass! TnT

It's not compassion. I find it revolting to be included in
your
religious
belief system. You can believe what you like and I have no
interest
in
trying to stop you. But when you deliberately include me in
that
which you
know repulses me, that is an act of anger and hatred.

Hopefully you will prove me wrong. But I have seen this
pattern
from
godtalkers before, and I think I am reading you correctly. If
you
continue
to deliberately include me in your religious belief system, I
will
know for
sure, and your status as a hateful and disturbed individual
will
be
confirmed.

Well KMAN, it must be convient to have a one size fits all
religion.

I wouldn't know.

Religion is all about power and control

Correct.

about being hateful

It doesn't have to be. I know religious people who are not
hateful
people.

It is unfortunate that religion often gets used by people as a
tool
for
hatred and/or religion uses people to promote hatred.

generally the realm of disturbed individuals, that because they
are
disturbed, you can wave off with a broad stroke of your
masterful
brush.

It is not the religious belief that equates to being disturbed.
Behaviour
tells you if the person is disturbed. In your case, the
challenge
comes from
the fact you have proclaimed yourself to be chosen by "god" to
communicate
for "him" and you believe that this gives you license to pursue
and
aggressive and hateful agenda.

I do not proclaim myself to be chosen, the Scriptures say that
"those
who believe, were chosen in Him from before the beginning of the
world!", and He appointed us as His ministers in the world to
share
the
Gospel of good News. I would agree that Christians should be more
agressive, but that does not mean we are hateful. You seem to
equate
agression, and hate, I don't equate them. Can you explain?

I don't equate them, being aggressive towards someone and hating
someone are
different things. However, aggression can certainly be a means of
communicating hatred.

There is no need to consider what any other well meaning person
suggest because you have it all figured out

As I have discussed with you in the past, I have close friends
who
have
religious beliefs, including, for example, a Catholic nun.

and need no other input from anyone elses experience

I benefit and learn from others every day, even you, Tinkerntom.
I
am

learning to be totally repulsed by your religious beliefs and
the
way
you
act them out, but I am nevertheless learning.

being totally incontrol of your future

LOL. I'm a leader of and totally devoted to a non-governmental
charitable
organization for people with intellectual disabilities, it's
hard
to
think
of a way to be in less control of your future.

your present only being disturbed by the revolting, repulsive,
and
totally aggresive an hateful practice of someone praying for
you

It's not that you are praying for me. It's the act of announcing
that
you
are doing so, and when you choose to make such announcements.
It's
totally
transparent that this is an act of aggression. You usually do it
when
you
are back into a logical corner and you don't want to confront
your
own
hypocrisy. You know very well that this act will not be received
in a

positive manner, which means you know that you are being
deliberately

negative towards the recipient. Your intentions are vioilent and
hateful,
and I'm sorry you refuse to see that.

sound like you really have it all together, and figured out.

It would depend what you are talking about. I have some things
together and
figured out, but just because I'm not caught up in some fantasy
about
an
invisible man that doesn't mean there aren't other challenges in
life.

Ok KMAN, I have tried to witness to you about who and what I
believe,
and if it makes you feel better, I won't be praying for you,
Wink-wink!, CU, TnT

Funny.

So I won't announce it, Wink-wink! CU TnT

So you won't address any of the points I made and just skip to the
end and
make a juvenile comment as is consistent with your particular
psychological
disorder, Wink-wink! CU kMAn

You said I was funny at the last, I thought so too. But I think you
have other points in mind, and I would suggest that you get your
snippers out so that we can shorten this thread so that it is easier
to
see your current statements that you desire me to comment on. They
are
getting lost in the rubble of the discussion. Edit and repost, and I
will be glad to comment on them. TnT

KMAN, I never heard back from you on this, and I know how easy it is
for post to get lost in the daily clutter. Snip and condense if you
would like and I will try to keep up with you. TnT