BoatBanter.com - Bill Moyers on environment, politics and Christian fundamentalists

KMAN wrote:
"Tinkerntom" wrote in message
ups.com...

KMAN wrote:
in article ,
Tinkerntom
at wrote on 3/31/05 11:07 PM:

That I believe in my God, should give
you pause that my promotion is not fake

Not in the least.

and worth serious
consideration since the potential alternative is eternal
loss!
TnT

Wrong again.

Your choice to be blind is your choice, and is a reflection
of
my
being
wrong, only in your eyes.

Oops. Faulty logic.

Not in the least, you make choices independent of me, even
before
you
knew me, you had made your choices. So whether I am right or
wrong
is
not a factor in your choice. That I appear wrong to you is a
function
of the choices you have already made and how those choices
affect
the
vision of your eyes, and not necessarily how I am.

Whoops, maybe you should pay attention before you flap off. At
least
wait
for the explanation before pretending to listen.

You said "That I believe in my God, should give you pause
that
my
promotion
is not fake"

This does not follow.

If you believe in God, or that pigs fly, or that the core of
the
earth is
made of strawberry ice cream, this does not in the least
influence
my

thinking regarding the veracity of your claim.

See, now here is the point where a comment would have been
expected:
following the explanation.

I'm still waiting, was there an esplanation in there somewhere?
for
the
choices you make? whether I am right or not? whether that makes
any
difference or not? Don't want to be flappen' off so I guess I
will
listen awhile longer!

I'll try again. Please pay attention, and please try to directly
address
what I say without breaking into godspeak or other forms of
irrelevant
babble.

You said: "That I believe in my God, should give you pause that my
promotion
is not fake"

I assure you that it gives me no such pause, and not because your
godtalk
appears to be mainly derived in some sort of psychological
disorder.

The reason it gives me no such pause is that it does not follow.

Whether you are telling me about your belief in "god" or your
belief
in pigs
that fly or your belief that the core of the earth is made of
celery,
the
fact that you believe one or all of those things to be true has
absolutely
no influence whatsoever with regard to whether or not they are
actually
true.

If you come across a street corner preacher and he tells you (and
you
believe that he believes it) that the world is ending tomorrow,
does
that
fact that he believes it score any points with you in making a
determination
as to whether or not the world is really going to end tomorrow?

Do you understand what I am saying now?

Hello? Anyone home Tinkerntom?

Do you understand what I am saying? You acknowledged that you did not
really believe in your fake god, and hence the fake promotion. You
would not expect anyone to take your God seriously, or give your
promotion in serious consideration, especially since you do not!

However if someone is sincere, and is promoting there God in a sincere
fashion, then it seems to me that you would pause and seriously
consider even for a moment, whether there is any need for you to pay
more attention. If you then decided that no there was nothing there in
this sincere promotion for you to believe, then you move on. That is
different than just dispatching whatever you hear to the trash bin
without even considering it because your mind is already made up. That
is all I was suggesting, whether you believe or not is still up to you,
and I would not be proposing that you should drop whatever you are
doing at the sound of every street corner preacher and roll up into a
sniveling little ball because the world is ending tomorrow.

And that is where all this started, back there with making a
choice.

The choice being I can share your delusions or not share your
delusions.
While it might be fun to share your delusions, and to an
extent
it
was
enjoyable pretending to have a god creation of my own for a
while,
I
am not
interested in living a lie, and therefore reject your offer
to
join
in your
state of delusion.

You obviosly have made your choice!

Thank you.

I will continue to pray for you! TnT

And announcing that you will do that will continue to show
that
you
are an
aggressive hateful person.

I may not be your typical milktoast Christian. I may be
agressive
in
presenting what I believe, and being willing to come in here
to
an
open
forum and stand toe to toe with you, and not back down from
what
I
believe

I don't want you to back down from what you believe. Never
asked
you
to,
never will.

and be willing to take a few good shots myself, and come back
for more. I understand that Christianity is more than able to
withstand
and understand the best you can hit us with. However that does
not
make
me hateful of you.

It is as hateful as insisting on calling a black person a
******.

I don't recall saying anything about calling folks names.

I don't recall saying anything about calling folks names either.

I am talking about the hatred inherent in your actions.

I think I said I would be praying for you.

Yes, you did. I have told you that I do not appreciate this. I
find
it
repulsive, in fact.

While you can obviously do whatever nutty god stuff you want, the
fact that
you choose to announce to me that which you know I find offensive
shows your
religion to be exactly what religion is all about - hatred against
those who
refuse to believe as you do.

Of course you being your own god

More aggression.

can
look into my heart and know that I am praying for you because I
am
a
hateful person. That makes a lot of sense.

I have explained to you that I do not share your belief system.
That
you
continue to deliberately include me in your belief system despite
my
expressed wishes to the contrary shows you to be a hateful person.

I don't need to look into your heart. I've told you that including
me
in
your belief system is offensive to me. Your announcements that you
are
"praying for me" (announcements that usually come when you are at
a
logical
dead end) is nothing but raw aggression and hatred.

Hateful of your sin yes, but I have stood where you
are at, and thrown insults and jibes at the Christian, so I
can
say
I
understand to some degree where you are at, but that does not
mean
I
hate you.

I do not know if you hate me, but you are hateful.

A person is hateful because you annouce that they are hateful!
You
really are getting off onto this trip of being your own god.

You are flapping off again and refusing to listen to what is
really
quite a
straightforward explanation.

I have explained to you that I do not share your belief system.
That
you
continue to deliberately include me in your belief system despite
my
expressed wishes to the contrary shows you to be a hateful person.

I've told you that including me in your belief system is offensive
to
me.
Your announcements that you are "praying for me" (announcements
that
usually
come when you are at a logical dead end) is nothing but raw
aggression and
hatred.

I have seen this type of aggression at other times from godtalkers
like
yourself. I see it used most frequently against traditional
targets
of
religious hatred, such as homosexuals. The religified person seeks
to
dehumanize the gay person by labelling them as "sick" and shares
their
"love" for the "sick" person by announcing they will "pray for
them."

This is nothing but thinly disguised aggression. It really means
"I
hate gay
people and I want you to know that I hate you."

You are doing the same thing Tinkerntom. I have received the
message,
Tinkerntom. You are filled with hatred towards me.

Am I wrong? We'll see. Given your knowledge about how I feel about
being
included in your religious belief system, if you continue to do
it,
that
proves your hatred beyond a doubt.

Anymore than you hate SW or rich or anyone else you may
disagree with, and probably a whole lot less. May I even
suggest
that
I feel compasssion for you as I get to know you better, and my
willingness to pray for you is a mark of my compassion. TnT

No, it's a measure of your hate.

And now compassion is a measure of hate. You have been smoking
some
stong grass! TnT

It's not compassion. I find it revolting to be included in your
religious
belief system. You can believe what you like and I have no
interest
in
trying to stop you. But when you deliberately include me in that
which you
know repulses me, that is an act of anger and hatred.

Hopefully you will prove me wrong. But I have seen this pattern
from
godtalkers before, and I think I am reading you correctly. If you
continue
to deliberately include me in your religious belief system, I will
know for
sure, and your status as a hateful and disturbed individual will
be
confirmed.

Well KMAN, it must be convient to have a one size fits all
religion.

I wouldn't know.

Religion is all about power and control

Correct.

about being hateful

It doesn't have to be. I know religious people who are not hateful
people.

It is unfortunate that religion often gets used by people as a tool
for
hatred and/or religion uses people to promote hatred.

generally the realm of disturbed individuals, that because they are
disturbed, you can wave off with a broad stroke of your masterful
brush.

It is not the religious belief that equates to being disturbed.
Behaviour
tells you if the person is disturbed. In your case, the challenge
comes from
the fact you have proclaimed yourself to be chosen by "god" to
communicate
for "him" and you believe that this gives you license to pursue and
aggressive and hateful agenda.

I do not proclaim myself to be chosen, the Scriptures say that "those
who believe, were chosen in Him from before the beginning of the
world!", and He appointed us as His ministers in the world to share the
Gospel of good News. I would agree that Christians should be more
agressive, but that does not mean we are hateful. You seem to equate
agression, and hate, I don't equate them. Can you explain?

There is no need to consider what any other well meaning person
suggest because you have it all figured out

As I have discussed with you in the past, I have close friends who
have
religious beliefs, including, for example, a Catholic nun.

and need no other input from anyone elses experience

I benefit and learn from others every day, even you, Tinkerntom. I am

learning to be totally repulsed by your religious beliefs and the way
you
act them out, but I am nevertheless learning.

being totally incontrol of your future

LOL. I'm a leader of and totally devoted to a non-governmental
charitable
organization for people with intellectual disabilities, it's hard to
think
of a way to be in less control of your future.

your present only being disturbed by the revolting, repulsive, and
totally aggresive an hateful practice of someone praying for you

It's not that you are praying for me. It's the act of announcing that
you
are doing so, and when you choose to make such announcements. It's
totally
transparent that this is an act of aggression. You usually do it when
you
are back into a logical corner and you don't want to confront your
own
hypocrisy. You know very well that this act will not be received in a

positive manner, which means you know that you are being deliberately

negative towards the recipient. Your intentions are vioilent and
hateful,
and I'm sorry you refuse to see that.

sound like you really have it all together, and figured out.

It would depend what you are talking about. I have some things
together and
figured out, but just because I'm not caught up in some fantasy about
an
invisible man that doesn't mean there aren't other challenges in
life.

Ok KMAN, I have tried to witness to you about who and what I
believe,
and if it makes you feel better, I won't be praying for you,
Wink-wink!, CU, TnT

Funny.

So I won't announce it, Wink-wink! CU TnT