On 15-Jan-2005, "Tinkerntom" wrote:

That is a wise newbie, but still a newbie to cold water.

Wise or otherwise, it is impossible to do cold water paddling
without at one point being a newbie. If you're never a newbie,
you'll never be experienced. Telling people to avoid cold
water because they're newbies is nonsense. Better to give them
useful advice and sources of where to learn.

Mike

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"

I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just
a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and
hopefully not a dead newbie! TnT

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just
a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and
hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

in article , Tinkerntom
at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM:

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer just
a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie, and
hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

Questions:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

What percentage of those are actually beginners?

I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT

I don't know how many die, I just don't want to be one of them, or my
friends, if I
have anything to say or do about it! TnT

Keenan Wellar wrote in
:

in article ,
Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM:

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer
just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie,
and hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

Questions:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?


What percentage of those are actually beginners?

It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.

in article , John Fereira at
wrote on 1/17/05 4:47 PM:

Keenan Wellar wrote in
:

in article ,
Tinkerntom at wrote on 1/16/05 7:06 PM:

Granted, and hopefully they listen to the advise, as Sparks apparent
has. I am not saying avoid cold, but avoid stupid! To quote Forrest
Gump, " Stupid is, as stupid does!"


I love being a newbie, because as a newbie, I can't make any mistakes
except not asking questions. The problem is that once I ask the
questions, and then go out and get some experience, I am no longer
just a newbie. At best I can be a wiser newbie, maybe a stupid newbie,
and hopefully not a dead newbie!

The worst scenario, is a bunch of newbies going off and doing the
newbie thing, and getting a dose of reality altogether when they were
altogether unprepared for that reality. TnT

Questions:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?

Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking?

What percentage of those are actually beginners?

It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.

Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question. I've
heard those same stories myself.

Keenan Wellar wrote:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?


Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking?

That's probably as good of a definition as any, though there is some sea
kayaking that IS whitewater, specifically surf and rock garden play.

What percentage of those are actually beginners?


It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.


Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question. I've
heard those same stories myself.

We get them all the time in New England, but fortunately, most of them
end happily. Unfortunately, that just encourages more stupidity.
Although I would never wish it, if more people died, perhaps more people
would think twice before doing something really stupid. If I had a buck
for every idiot I've seen out paddling on water in the 40's in nothing
more than jeans or shorts and a T-shirt, I could retire tomorrow. All
too often, their attitude is just like that of a couple we spoke with
that was out in a tandem so dressed, with no PFD's or spray skirts. When
we explained the dangers to them, their response was "Well, we weren't
planning on going in the water." Duh!

BTW, if you want some details regarding paddling fatalities, the ACA has
published a paper on the subject that's quite illuminating. It's
available on their web site. Kayakers actually come off quite well in
the study.

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...
Keenan Wellar wrote:

How many people die each year while sea kayaking?

Define sea kayaking?


Can we go with any kayaking that is not whitewater kayaking?

That's probably as good of a definition as any, though there is some sea
kayaking that IS whitewater, specifically surf and rock garden play.

Fair enough. If it is possible to exclude those...I think I am talking about
kayakers who are going from A to B as their primary goal :-)


What percentage of those are actually beginners?


It seems that every year around March-April there are several stories
posted
here about beginners that have gone out when the air temperatures warm up
but the water is still cold. Typically it's the same story...no PFD
and/or
appropriate clothing for immersion. Last year a couple of guys went out
on
our local lake in a canoe and capsized about 400' from shore. The water
temperature on the lake at the time was in the low 40's. They didn't
have
PFDs and were wearing jeans and t-shirts. They, were, however fortunate
that a cottage owner saw them go over, jumped in a power boat and went
out
to rescue them. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would have died if
the
cottage owner had not seen them capsize.


Stories are stories...I'd curious to know the answer to the question.
I've
heard those same stories myself.

We get them all the time in New England, but fortunately, most of them end
happily. Unfortunately, that just encourages more stupidity. Although I
would never wish it, if more people died, perhaps more people would think
twice before doing something really stupid. If I had a buck for every
idiot I've seen out paddling on water in the 40's in nothing more than
jeans or shorts and a T-shirt, I could retire tomorrow. All too often,
their attitude is just like that of a couple we spoke with that was out in
a tandem so dressed, with no PFD's or spray skirts. When we explained the
dangers to them, their response was "Well, we weren't planning on going in
the water." Duh!

BTW, if you want some details regarding paddling fatalities, the ACA has
published a paper on the subject that's quite illuminating. It's available
on their web site. Kayakers actually come off quite well in the study.

That's sort of why I am asking these questions. A while back during a
discussion on another newsgroup I came up with stats for Canada, and
frankly, paddling deaths (canoe + kayak) were almost non-existent, and from
what I could find, were not correlated strongly with "beginner" incidents.