Clearly, the engineering staff at PCM/Crusader was remiss in not consulting you prior to publishing their
conclusions. I feel that you would be doing the boating public a service by contacting these engineers
and letting them know how stupid they are.

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:35:22 GMT, Jim Kelly wrote:

Gene,
Hydrodynamic lubrication takes place regardless of the type of oil used.

Only in a perfect world. If such were the case there never would be
any engine wear.

In the case of a plain
bearing such as those used on the crankshaft, there are conditions when boundary layer lubrication is
present such as upon start up. After the crank picks up speed, a wedge shaped film of oil is present
that is created by the hydrodynamic forces. At this point, their is full film lubrication.

This doesn't explain other parts of the engine subject to extreme
pressures, like cam-tappet wear surfaces. Everybody seems to think in
terms of "cold pumpability," but the fact of the matters is a lot of
engine parts are lubricated via splash. Molasses thick cold oil
doesn't splash very well (and too-hot oil will stick rings in a
jiffy).

The
additives you mention do not change this. If their never existed a boundary layer condition, there
would never be any bearing or journal wear and the bearings would last indefinitely. Whether you use
conventional or synthetic, this is not the case.

True, but the additives I mentioned will prevent galling and help the
wear parts over that inevitable metal-metal touch. You seem, now, to
me making my point. Why would getting the oil pumped to operating
pressure faster not force a quicker move from boundary to hydrodynamic
lubrication? Wouldn't that help prevent boundary lubrication problems?
You seem to be on both sides of the synthetic/dino fence, now!

Crusader Marine Engines did a study on this a few
years ago and came to the conclusion that, under normal operating conditions, there was no benefit to
using synthetics in their engines.


Yeah, there verbiage is:

"Synthetic engine oils are not recommended for use
in Crusader Engines. Synthetics may offer advantages
in cold temperature pumpability and high temperature
oxidation-resistance. However, synthetic oils have not
proven to provide operational or economic benefits over
conventional petroleum-based oils in Crusader Engines.
Their use does not permit the extension of oil change
intervals."

My issue with them is, "in a perfect world - not too hot, not too cold
synthetics just aren't necessary in our engines." Well, duh! I plan
for Murphy's Law, not Pollyanna's law of engine dynamics.... and at
the acquisition and repair costs of these engines, everyone would be
well advised to do likewise..

Oil is a helluva lot cheaper than repair and replacement.

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Looks like you need to add the engineering staff of Mercruiser to the list of idiots that you need to
straighten out. Good thing Yamaha and OMC are out of the stern drive business or you would, no doubt,
have to educate and enlighten them out too!

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:16:31 GMT, WaIIy
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:21:01 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Yeah, there verbiage is:

"Synthetic engine oils are not recommended for use
in Crusader Engines. Synthetics may offer advantages
in cold temperature pumpability and high temperature
oxidation-resistance. However, synthetic oils have not
proven to provide operational or economic benefits over
conventional petroleum-based oils in Crusader Engines.
Their use does not permit the extension of oil change
intervals."


My issue with them is, "in a perfect world - not too hot, not too cold
synthetics just aren't necessary in our engines." Well, duh! I plan
for Murphy's Law, not Pollyanna's law of engine dynamics.... and at
the acquisition and repair costs of these engines, everyone would be
well advised to do likewise..

Oil is a helluva lot cheaper than repair and replacement.

Mercury chimes in...

MPORTANT: The use of non-detergent oils, multi-viscosity oils (other
than Quicksilver 25W-40 or a good quality 20W-40 or 20W-50), synthetic
oils, low quality oils or oils that contain solid additives are
specifically NOT recommended.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/fueloil...mendation_faqs

If you read what they have written.... they don't recommend using
*any* type of oil but a straight weight, detergent dino oil. What is
so special (and different) about their engines?

I don't understand any more about the *why* for this "recommendation"
than I understand the *why* for them calling their Quicksilver 25W-40
a multiviscosity oil... when you get past their mumblespeak that
Skipper used to post every 3 months it is obviously a single viscosity
oil.

In fact, for the first time, it appears they have slipped up and
admitted as much: "...25W-40 Marine Engine Oil. This oil is a special
blend of 25-weight and 40-weight oils..."

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:16:31 GMT, WaIIy
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:21:01 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Yeah, there verbiage is:

"Synthetic engine oils are not recommended for use
in Crusader Engines. Synthetics may offer advantages
in cold temperature pumpability and high temperature
oxidation-resistance. However, synthetic oils have not
proven to provide operational or economic benefits over
conventional petroleum-based oils in Crusader Engines.
Their use does not permit the extension of oil change
intervals."


My issue with them is, "in a perfect world - not too hot, not too cold
synthetics just aren't necessary in our engines." Well, duh! I plan
for Murphy's Law, not Pollyanna's law of engine dynamics.... and at
the acquisition and repair costs of these engines, everyone would be
well advised to do likewise..

Oil is a helluva lot cheaper than repair and replacement.

Mercury chimes in...

MPORTANT: The use of non-detergent oils, multi-viscosity oils (other
than Quicksilver 25W-40 or a good quality 20W-40 or 20W-50), synthetic
oils, low quality oils or oils that contain solid additives are
specifically NOT recommended.
http://www.mercurymarine.com/fueloil...mendation_faqs


If you read what they have written.... they don't recommend using
*any* type of oil but a straight weight, detergent dino oil. What is
so special (and different) about their engines?

I don't understand any more about the *why* for this "recommendation"
than I understand the *why* for them calling their Quicksilver 25W-40
a multiviscosity oil... when you get past their mumblespeak that
Skipper used to post every 3 months it is obviously a single viscosity
oil.

In fact, for the first time, it appears they have slipped up and
admitted as much: "...25W-40 Marine Engine Oil. This oil is a special
blend of 25-weight and 40-weight oils..."



The service manual for my Yamaha F225 only mentions using ordinary
four-cycle engine oil, never a four-cycle oil by brand. I have not come
across any references to non-dino oil, either. And Yamaha, like every
other outboard maker, has its own private-label oils.

--
Email sent to is never read.

What are you talking about, "attack"? I am commending you for your tireless efforts! However, I am surprised
that you haven't mentioned the most important reason for using synthetics. As you know, it eliminates the
senseless slaughter of dinosaurs for their oil.

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 23:54:24 GMT, Jim Kelly wrote:

Clearly, the engineering staff at PCM/Crusader was remiss in not consulting you prior to publishing their
conclusions. I feel that you would be doing the boating public a service by contacting these engineers
and letting them know how stupid they are.



Not a problem, Jim. When you run out of facts in a discussion it *is*
a wise course to attack the poster.

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

THAT, I will agree with!

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:26:42 GMT, Jim Kelly wrote:

Looks like you need to add the engineering staff of Mercruiser to the list of idiots that you need to
straighten out. Good thing Yamaha and OMC are out of the stern drive business or you would, no doubt,
have to educate and enlighten them out too!


If you'll have them call me I'll try to help them, but I don't know if
they'll get it.

Anyway, however inane and pointless this discussion has become, it
*IS*, at least, on topic..... and after I just killed about 35,
liberals suck, conservatives suck, democrats suck, republicans suck,
WMD, IRAQ, (ad nauseam) threads........ and found very little left....

maybe there is some merit.

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:34:20 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


The service manual for my Yamaha F225 only mentions using ordinary
four-cycle engine oil, never a four-cycle oil by brand. I have not come
across any references to non-dino oil, either. And Yamaha, like every
other outboard maker, has its own private-label oils.

Ditto my Suzukis.... except they do label their own brand.

I did, however, call Suzuki about using synthetics and they didn't
recommend them. When I reminded them that synthetics and dino oil all
had to meet the same SAE and API specs and that none of their
literature led me to believe otherwise.... and thus, "Why not?" They
backed off and said that synthetics might actually be a better oil,
but they had no data, so were telling people, "not recommended."

Some people seem not to realize that some of this data emanates not
from Engineering, but from Sales and Legal....


That seems logical, but I really wonder about the assumed benefits from
synthetic oil, especially if you are supposed to change it at the same
regular intervals as dino oil. We changed the oil at 10 hours in our
Yamaha and then at 50. Fifty seems a reasonable interval for a gas
engine in pleasure boat service.

Interestingly, I haven't really come across a customer service line at
Yamaha similar to the one I called at Mercury. I can't say I've looked
all that hard, but with Merc, it was easy to find. Yamaha doesn't seem
to encourage such connection.

--
Email sent to is never read.

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 22:24:35 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:


That seems logical, but I really wonder about the assumed benefits from
synthetic oil, especially if you are supposed to change it at the same
regular intervals as dino oil. We changed the oil at 10 hours in our
Yamaha and then at 50. Fifty seems a reasonable interval for a gas
engine in pleasure boat service.


The benefits may, actually, be minimal in temperate climates when the
oil is changed very frequently and there are no anomalies in
operation. Extending drain intervals, IMHO, is dependent, entirely,
on superior filtration technologies, which I doubt are available for
outboards....

Interestingly, I haven't really come across a customer service line at
Yamaha similar to the one I called at Mercury. I can't say I've looked
all that hard, but with Merc, it was easy to find. Yamaha doesn't seem
to encourage such connection.

I believe you are correct. However, I *do* remember that obscure
number being posted here a few years back. Maybe somebody will
remember it?


It would be nice. Did we ever have a Yamaha dealer posting here, or did
Lucretia Borgia of Oz chase him off, too? We used to have a couple
dealers and dealer mechanics who were helpful here. I think Grannis is
the only one left.

--
Email sent to is never read.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...


Interestingly, I haven't really come across a customer service line at
Yamaha similar to the one I called at Mercury.

I believe you are correct. However, I *do* remember that obscure
number being posted here a few years back. Maybe somebody will
remember it?


It would be nice. Did we ever have a Yamaha dealer posting here, or did
Lucretia Borgia of Oz chase him off, too? We used to have a couple
dealers and dealer mechanics who were helpful here. I think Grannis is
the only one left.



The Yamaha customer service number is 800-962-7926. Be advised that Yamaha
is not always as "consumer friendly" as Mercury and Bombardier (OMC) help
lines are.

Bill Grannis
service manager