None ever wore out. If you change your oil and filters regularly there is no
real advantage to synthetic oil.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
It would have made your engines last longer than they they did with
conventional oil.

I've never had and engine failure either. That's not the point. The
point
is, do you want your rings and bearings worn out and ready for the junk
yard
at 150,000 miles or at 500,000 miles.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
Synthetic oil is definitely much better than conventional oil. My
boat
has
a Volvo engine and I use nothing but synthetic in the engine and in
the
outdrive. I also use nothing but synthetic in my truck.

The way I see it, if you take care of it, it will take care of you.

Frank

I have been driving for 34 years and boating for 14 years. I have never
used
synthetic oil.

I have never had an engine failure except one raw water cooled inboard
that
corroded out after 6 years and 1300 hours in salt water.

What would synthetic oil have done for me during all that time except
cost
a
lot of money?

Evidently, you have reaped the benefit of taking good care of your vehicles.
Whether you use conventional or synthetic, changing your oil is important.
Here are some of the reasons why I think synthetic oil is much better:

1. My own experience - I have been using synthetic oil for about 10 years
now. Every vehicle that I have had in that time period has shown minimal
wear and lasted several hundreds of thousands of miles (I drive an awful
lot) with only minor maintenance. Although it may appear that the parts on
your engine have not worn out, they do in fact wear. A car that has driven
a hundred thousand miles on conventional oil shows significant loss in
compression in the cylinders due to wear on the piston rings whereas a car
driven the same distance on synthetic shows much less wear. This does not
mean that the car using conventional oil is no longer useful or that it even
needs the engine rebuilt. It simply means that the engine is no longer
quite as efficient and powerful as is used to be. My last car had so little
engine wear after 300,000 miles that my mechanic said that it looked more
like it only had 20,000 miles on it. He attributed it to the fact that I
use synthetic oil. Three years ago, I gave it to my brother-in-law with
328,000 miles on it. He is still driving it. And get this - It's not an
expensive car, it's a Dodge Shadow ES. I also notice that my engine runs a
lot smoother with synthetic oil. Maybe that does or does not mean anything
when it comes to how long the engine will last but it sure sounds better.

2. Planes - Yep, planes. This is where synthetic oil actually first started
being used - - - in airplane engines. Conventional oil could not hack the
harsh environment of some aircraft engines so synthetic oil was developed
for use in aircraft. I have had a chance to talk to some of the engineers
at Lockheed and one of them gave me a real good lesson in why synthetic oil
was so much better. He convinced me.

3. Test after test after test - There have been numerous independent test
that have shown time and time again that synthetic oil is superior. If you
want some more info on why it is better, you can go to
http://www.dirtroad.com/oil2.htm.

4. If conventional oil was just as good as synthetic, why do most NASCAR
teams use synthetic and why do some auto manufacturers put synthetic oil in
some of their new performance cars and require it for their warranties to
remain valid?

The fact is, that synthetic oils are better. Yes, they are more expensive
but they are also better.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...
None ever wore out. If you change your oil and filters regularly there is
no
real advantage to synthetic oil.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
It would have made your engines last longer than they they did with
conventional oil.

I've never had and engine failure either. That's not the point. The
point
is, do you want your rings and bearings worn out and ready for the junk
yard
at 150,000 miles or at 500,000 miles.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
Synthetic oil is definitely much better than conventional oil. My
boat
has
a Volvo engine and I use nothing but synthetic in the engine and in
the
outdrive. I also use nothing but synthetic in my truck.

The way I see it, if you take care of it, it will take care of you.

Frank

I have been driving for 34 years and boating for 14 years. I have
never
used
synthetic oil.

I have never had an engine failure except one raw water cooled inboard
that
corroded out after 6 years and 1300 hours in salt water.

What would synthetic oil have done for me during all that time except
cost
a
lot of money?

I think you are getting your balls in a bunch. You are confusing extreme
pressure properties of certain types of lubricants with the ability of both
synthetic and conventional oils to operate satisfactorily in the typical
boundary layer lubrication environment of an internal combustion engine. You
need to read up on tribology and the mechanics of an oil film in plain bearing
applications as well as sliding motion applications. The most detrimental
aspect of lubrication in an internal combustion engine is contamination from the
combustion process. Unlike a gear box application, the oil in an engine is
subject to the byproducts of the combustion process as well as unburnt fuel.
For this reason, changing the oil and filter on a regular basis is much more
important than the type of oil used.



"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Well, I'm not sure what that quart of "Volvo Duraplus Synthetic Oil" is that
is sitting right in front of me as I write this message is but it sure looks
like synthetic oil to me. I suppose that it could be manufactured by some
other company and Volvo just puts their name on it.

You are correct, that the temperature characteristics of synthetic oil are a
big advantage of synthetics but it goes much further than that. The
molecular structure of synthetic oil is also much more consistent than that
of conventional oil. Consider this analogy:

Lets say you have a bunch of steel balls of all different sizes and you
thrown them down on a concrete floor and then throw a board on top of them
and step on it. As you surf across the steel balls on top of the board, you
are really only ridinng on the large balls. The surfaces on these few balls
will soon wear down and the ride becomes rough. This is how conventional
oils works.

Now you do the same thing with another bunch of balls that are all the same
exact size. Since they are all the same size, the board rides evenly across
all of the balls at the same time. Since all of the balls are supporting
the board, they do not wear down nearly as quickly and the ride starts
smoother and stays smoother for much loinger. That is what synthetic oil
does.

Yes, synthetic oil is more expensive but it's cheaper than a new eingine.

Frank

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
Volvo does not make any oil, synthetic or conventional. Statements like
"synthetic is definitely much better" are meaningless. Synthetic
lubricants
have properties which make them a better choice for certain applications.
If
the application does not take advantage of these properties, there is
nothing
to be gained by using them. One of their greatest attributes is a more
linear temperature vs. viscosity curve. There is a misconception that
synthetics are simply higher quality. This is not the case.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

30 wt refers to the viscosity charactersitics of the oil. It can still
be
either conventional or synthetic. As a matter of fact, Volvo makes a
straight 30 wt synthetic oil for its marine engines.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On 16 Dec 2003 17:09:51 -0800, (Bear) wrote:

(Bear) revised earlier message
.com...

'97 Chapparal w/ a Volvo-Penta 5.7L Carb w/ SX Outdrive

Questions:

1) Volvo pushes synthetics for crankcase and outdrive, yet all the
boat places around me (Austin - San Antonio) said to use regular
20w-50 motor oil in crankcase and non-suynthetic in outdrive...
Of course they said to change every 100 hours or per season.
Experience / Opinions?

2) Any thoughts / experience on spark plugs for this motor???

Thanks!

Hmmm, the people I talk to in Ohio say to use straight 30 wt in my
1989
5.7.

Jim,

You sound like you are well versed in the matters of internal combustion
engine lubrication. You are correct that oil contamination is a major
factor in oil breakdown and that is why oil should be changed regularly.
Although many synthetic oil users believe in extended periods between oil
changes, that is one thing that I do not buy into mainly because of the
issues that you mentioned. In addition to contamination, heat and
mechanical forces are also causes of oil breakdown.

The fact is, that no matter whant kind of oil you use, as soon as you put it
in and start the engine, the breakdown process starts and conventional oil
will break down faster than synthetic. Even after only 1,000 miles,
conventional oils will have lost much more of their protective properties
than synthetic oils.

I suspect that you are also aware of the fact that for the typical
automotive engine, a large amount of wear occurs during engine startup when
all of the oil is still in the pan. Because of the molecular properties of
synthetic oil, it adheres to engine components much better than conventional
oil thus providing more protection at startup.

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
I think you are getting your balls in a bunch. You are confusing extreme
pressure properties of certain types of lubricants with the ability of
both
synthetic and conventional oils to operate satisfactorily in the typical
boundary layer lubrication environment of an internal combustion engine.
You
need to read up on tribology and the mechanics of an oil film in plain
bearing
applications as well as sliding motion applications. The most detrimental
aspect of lubrication in an internal combustion engine is contamination
from the
combustion process. Unlike a gear box application, the oil in an engine
is
subject to the byproducts of the combustion process as well as unburnt
fuel.
For this reason, changing the oil and filter on a regular basis is much
more
important than the type of oil used.



"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Well, I'm not sure what that quart of "Volvo Duraplus Synthetic Oil" is
that
is sitting right in front of me as I write this message is but it sure
looks
like synthetic oil to me. I suppose that it could be manufactured by
some
other company and Volvo just puts their name on it.

You are correct, that the temperature characteristics of synthetic oil
are a
big advantage of synthetics but it goes much further than that. The
molecular structure of synthetic oil is also much more consistent than
that
of conventional oil. Consider this analogy:

Lets say you have a bunch of steel balls of all different sizes and you
thrown them down on a concrete floor and then throw a board on top of
them
and step on it. As you surf across the steel balls on top of the board,
you
are really only ridinng on the large balls. The surfaces on these few
balls
will soon wear down and the ride becomes rough. This is how
conventional
oils works.

Now you do the same thing with another bunch of balls that are all the
same
exact size. Since they are all the same size, the board rides evenly
across
all of the balls at the same time. Since all of the balls are
supporting
the board, they do not wear down nearly as quickly and the ride starts
smoother and stays smoother for much loinger. That is what synthetic
oil
does.

Yes, synthetic oil is more expensive but it's cheaper than a new
eingine.

Frank

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
Volvo does not make any oil, synthetic or conventional. Statements
like
"synthetic is definitely much better" are meaningless. Synthetic
lubricants
have properties which make them a better choice for certain
applications.
If
the application does not take advantage of these properties, there is
nothing
to be gained by using them. One of their greatest attributes is a
more
linear temperature vs. viscosity curve. There is a misconception that
synthetics are simply higher quality. This is not the case.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

30 wt refers to the viscosity charactersitics of the oil. It can
still
be
either conventional or synthetic. As a matter of fact, Volvo makes
a
straight 30 wt synthetic oil for its marine engines.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On 16 Dec 2003 17:09:51 -0800, (Bear) wrote:

(Bear) revised earlier message
.com...

'97 Chapparal w/ a Volvo-Penta 5.7L Carb w/ SX Outdrive

Questions:

1) Volvo pushes synthetics for crankcase and outdrive, yet all
the
boat places around me (Austin - San Antonio) said to use
regular
20w-50 motor oil in crankcase and non-suynthetic in
outdrive...
Of course they said to change every 100 hours or per season.
Experience / Opinions?

2) Any thoughts / experience on spark plugs for this motor???

Thanks!

Hmmm, the people I talk to in Ohio say to use straight 30 wt in
my
1989
5.7.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message ...
Evidently, you have reaped the benefit of taking good care of your vehicles.
Whether you use conventional or synthetic, changing your oil is important.
Here are some of the reasons why I think synthetic oil is much better:

1. My own experience - I have been using synthetic oil for about 10 years
now. Every vehicle that I have had in that time period has shown minimal
wear and lasted several hundreds of thousands of miles (I drive an awful
lot) with only minor maintenance. Although it may appear that the parts on
your engine have not worn out, they do in fact wear. A car that has driven
a hundred thousand miles on conventional oil shows significant loss in
compression in the cylinders due to wear on the piston rings whereas a car
driven the same distance on synthetic shows much less wear. This does not
mean that the car using conventional oil is no longer useful or that it even
needs the engine rebuilt. It simply means that the engine is no longer
quite as efficient and powerful as is used to be. My last car had so little
engine wear after 300,000 miles that my mechanic said that it looked more
like it only had 20,000 miles on it. He attributed it to the fact that I
use synthetic oil. Three years ago, I gave it to my brother-in-law with
328,000 miles on it. He is still driving it. And get this - It's not an
expensive car, it's a Dodge Shadow ES. I also notice that my engine runs a
lot smoother with synthetic oil. Maybe that does or does not mean anything
when it comes to how long the engine will last but it sure sounds better.

2. Planes - Yep, planes. This is where synthetic oil actually first started
being used - - - in airplane engines. Conventional oil could not hack the
harsh environment of some aircraft engines so synthetic oil was developed
for use in aircraft. I have had a chance to talk to some of the engineers
at Lockheed and one of them gave me a real good lesson in why synthetic oil
was so much better. He convinced me.

3. Test after test after test - There have been numerous independent test
that have shown time and time again that synthetic oil is superior. If you
want some more info on why it is better, you can go to
http://www.dirtroad.com/oil2.htm.

4. If conventional oil was just as good as synthetic, why do most NASCAR
teams use synthetic and why do some auto manufacturers put synthetic oil in
some of their new performance cars and require it for their warranties to
remain valid?

The fact is, that synthetic oils are better. Yes, they are more expensive
but they are also better.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...
None ever wore out. If you change your oil and filters regularly there is
no
real advantage to synthetic oil.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
It would have made your engines last longer than they they did with
conventional oil.

I've never had and engine failure either. That's not the point. The
point
is, do you want your rings and bearings worn out and ready for the junk
yard
at 150,000 miles or at 500,000 miles.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
Synthetic oil is definitely much better than conventional oil. My
boat
has
a Volvo engine and I use nothing but synthetic in the engine and in
the
outdrive. I also use nothing but synthetic in my truck.

The way I see it, if you take care of it, it will take care of you.

Frank

I have been driving for 34 years and boating for 14 years. I have
never
used
synthetic oil.

I have never had an engine failure except one raw water cooled inboard
that
corroded out after 6 years and 1300 hours in salt water.

What would synthetic oil have done for me during all that time except
cost
a
lot of money?







Thanks - you have me convinced!!! But, after a recent trip to
AutoZone, and seeing ALL the synthetic oil vendors...is one superior
to the others?

Gene,
Hydrodynamic lubrication takes place regardless of the type of oil used. In the case of a plain
bearing such as those used on the crankshaft, there are conditions when boundary layer lubrication is
present such as upon start up. After the crank picks up speed, a wedge shaped film of oil is present
that is created by the hydrodynamic forces. At this point, their is full film lubrication. The
additives you mention do not change this. If their never existed a boundary layer condition, there
would never be any bearing or journal wear and the bearings would last indefinitely. Whether you use
conventional or synthetic, this is not the case. Crusader Marine Engines did a study on this a few
years ago and came to the conclusion that, under normal operating conditions, there was no benefit to
using synthetics in their engines.

Gene Kearns wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:34:58 GMT, Jim Kelly wrote:

I think you are getting your balls in a bunch. You are confusing extreme
pressure properties of certain types of lubricants with the ability of both
synthetic and conventional oils to operate satisfactorily in the typical
boundary layer lubrication environment of an internal combustion engine. You
need to read up on tribology and the mechanics of an oil film in plain bearing
applications as well as sliding motion applications. The most detrimental
aspect of lubrication in an internal combustion engine is contamination from the
combustion process. Unlike a gear box application, the oil in an engine is
subject to the byproducts of the combustion process as well as unburnt fuel.
For this reason, changing the oil and filter on a regular basis is much more
important than the type of oil used.




Jim,

Your confusion seems to be in relying on the boundary layer type of
lubrication. Modern synthetic lubrication relies on hydrodynamic
lubrication. Boundary layer lubrication is handled by tri phenyl
phosphate or (of late) tricresyl phosphate and is a last resort.

Use synthetic lubricants and metal-to-metal contact, most likely,
won't be an issue.

--

Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide

Frank,
Yes, I am aware of the wear that takes place during start up. However, I know
of no evidence that synthetic oil possesses adhesive properties that reduce wear
during this time. For years, additive manufacturers have been displaying
plastic gear arrangements in a clear box. The hand crank is turned and the oil
with their additive ribbons around the gears while the oil without drips off.
Although impressive, it does not indicate what is happening at the gear mesh.
In both cases, there is full film lubrication at the mesh and the additive
provides no additional benefit. As I mentioned in my response to Gene, Crusader
Marine came to the conclusion that there was no benefit to using synthetics in
their engines under normal operating conditions. Obviously, if they felt that
there was any chance that warranty claims might be reduced with the use of
synthetics, they would certainly recommend, if not require, their use.

On the other hand, there are industrial applications where synthetic oils and
greases have proven to be far superior to their conventional counterparts.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Jim,

You sound like you are well versed in the matters of internal combustion
engine lubrication. You are correct that oil contamination is a major
factor in oil breakdown and that is why oil should be changed regularly.
Although many synthetic oil users believe in extended periods between oil
changes, that is one thing that I do not buy into mainly because of the
issues that you mentioned. In addition to contamination, heat and
mechanical forces are also causes of oil breakdown.

The fact is, that no matter whant kind of oil you use, as soon as you put it
in and start the engine, the breakdown process starts and conventional oil
will break down faster than synthetic. Even after only 1,000 miles,
conventional oils will have lost much more of their protective properties
than synthetic oils.

I suspect that you are also aware of the fact that for the typical
automotive engine, a large amount of wear occurs during engine startup when
all of the oil is still in the pan. Because of the molecular properties of
synthetic oil, it adheres to engine components much better than conventional
oil thus providing more protection at startup.

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
I think you are getting your balls in a bunch. You are confusing extreme
pressure properties of certain types of lubricants with the ability of
both
synthetic and conventional oils to operate satisfactorily in the typical
boundary layer lubrication environment of an internal combustion engine.
You
need to read up on tribology and the mechanics of an oil film in plain
bearing
applications as well as sliding motion applications. The most detrimental
aspect of lubrication in an internal combustion engine is contamination
from the
combustion process. Unlike a gear box application, the oil in an engine
is
subject to the byproducts of the combustion process as well as unburnt
fuel.
For this reason, changing the oil and filter on a regular basis is much
more
important than the type of oil used.



"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Well, I'm not sure what that quart of "Volvo Duraplus Synthetic Oil" is
that
is sitting right in front of me as I write this message is but it sure
looks
like synthetic oil to me. I suppose that it could be manufactured by
some
other company and Volvo just puts their name on it.

You are correct, that the temperature characteristics of synthetic oil
are a
big advantage of synthetics but it goes much further than that. The
molecular structure of synthetic oil is also much more consistent than
that
of conventional oil. Consider this analogy:

Lets say you have a bunch of steel balls of all different sizes and you
thrown them down on a concrete floor and then throw a board on top of
them
and step on it. As you surf across the steel balls on top of the board,
you
are really only ridinng on the large balls. The surfaces on these few
balls
will soon wear down and the ride becomes rough. This is how
conventional
oils works.

Now you do the same thing with another bunch of balls that are all the
same
exact size. Since they are all the same size, the board rides evenly
across
all of the balls at the same time. Since all of the balls are
supporting
the board, they do not wear down nearly as quickly and the ride starts
smoother and stays smoother for much loinger. That is what synthetic
oil
does.

Yes, synthetic oil is more expensive but it's cheaper than a new
eingine.

Frank

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
Volvo does not make any oil, synthetic or conventional. Statements
like
"synthetic is definitely much better" are meaningless. Synthetic
lubricants
have properties which make them a better choice for certain
applications.
If
the application does not take advantage of these properties, there is
nothing
to be gained by using them. One of their greatest attributes is a
more
linear temperature vs. viscosity curve. There is a misconception that
synthetics are simply higher quality. This is not the case.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

30 wt refers to the viscosity charactersitics of the oil. It can
still
be
either conventional or synthetic. As a matter of fact, Volvo makes
a
straight 30 wt synthetic oil for its marine engines.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On 16 Dec 2003 17:09:51 -0800, (Bear) wrote:

(Bear) revised earlier message
.com...

'97 Chapparal w/ a Volvo-Penta 5.7L Carb w/ SX Outdrive

Questions:

1) Volvo pushes synthetics for crankcase and outdrive, yet all
the
boat places around me (Austin - San Antonio) said to use
regular
20w-50 motor oil in crankcase and non-suynthetic in
outdrive...
Of course they said to change every 100 hours or per season.
Experience / Opinions?

2) Any thoughts / experience on spark plugs for this motor???

Thanks!

Hmmm, the people I talk to in Ohio say to use straight 30 wt in
my
1989
5.7.

I prefer to use Mobil 1 because it has a very good reputation and all of the
tests I have seen also put it either at or near the top.

Amsoil is rated pretty high too but unless you know of an Amsoil
distributor, or are willing to buy it on the web and have it shipped, you
may not be able to find it. I have heard that there are a few stores that
stock it but I have not seen it in any myself.

Good luck

Frank

"Bear" wrote in message
om...
"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
Evidently, you have reaped the benefit of taking good care of your
vehicles.
Whether you use conventional or synthetic, changing your oil is
important.
Here are some of the reasons why I think synthetic oil is much better:

1. My own experience - I have been using synthetic oil for about 10
years
now. Every vehicle that I have had in that time period has shown
minimal
wear and lasted several hundreds of thousands of miles (I drive an awful
lot) with only minor maintenance. Although it may appear that the parts
on
your engine have not worn out, they do in fact wear. A car that has
driven
a hundred thousand miles on conventional oil shows significant loss in
compression in the cylinders due to wear on the piston rings whereas a
car
driven the same distance on synthetic shows much less wear. This does
not
mean that the car using conventional oil is no longer useful or that it
even
needs the engine rebuilt. It simply means that the engine is no longer
quite as efficient and powerful as is used to be. My last car had so
little
engine wear after 300,000 miles that my mechanic said that it looked
more
like it only had 20,000 miles on it. He attributed it to the fact that
I
use synthetic oil. Three years ago, I gave it to my brother-in-law with
328,000 miles on it. He is still driving it. And get this - It's not
an
expensive car, it's a Dodge Shadow ES. I also notice that my engine
runs a
lot smoother with synthetic oil. Maybe that does or does not mean
anything
when it comes to how long the engine will last but it sure sounds
better.

2. Planes - Yep, planes. This is where synthetic oil actually first
started
being used - - - in airplane engines. Conventional oil could not hack
the
harsh environment of some aircraft engines so synthetic oil was
developed
for use in aircraft. I have had a chance to talk to some of the
engineers
at Lockheed and one of them gave me a real good lesson in why synthetic
oil
was so much better. He convinced me.

3. Test after test after test - There have been numerous independent
test
that have shown time and time again that synthetic oil is superior. If
you
want some more info on why it is better, you can go to
http://www.dirtroad.com/oil2.htm.

4. If conventional oil was just as good as synthetic, why do most
NASCAR
teams use synthetic and why do some auto manufacturers put synthetic oil
in
some of their new performance cars and require it for their warranties
to
remain valid?

The fact is, that synthetic oils are better. Yes, they are more
expensive
but they are also better.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...
None ever wore out. If you change your oil and filters regularly there
is
no
real advantage to synthetic oil.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
It would have made your engines last longer than they they did with
conventional oil.

I've never had and engine failure either. That's not the point.
The
point
is, do you want your rings and bearings worn out and ready for the
junk
yard
at 150,000 miles or at 500,000 miles.


"-v-" wrote in message
om...

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote in message
...
Synthetic oil is definitely much better than conventional oil.
My
boat
has
a Volvo engine and I use nothing but synthetic in the engine and
in
the
outdrive. I also use nothing but synthetic in my truck.

The way I see it, if you take care of it, it will take care of
you.

Frank

I have been driving for 34 years and boating for 14 years. I have
never
used
synthetic oil.

I have never had an engine failure except one raw water cooled
inboard
that
corroded out after 6 years and 1300 hours in salt water.

What would synthetic oil have done for me during all that time
except
cost
a
lot of money?







Thanks - you have me convinced!!! But, after a recent trip to
AutoZone, and seeing ALL the synthetic oil vendors...is one superior
to the others?

Hey Jim,

I agree with you on one thing. Those little displays with three wheels and
and ounce of oil sitting on the parts counter are useful for just one thing
.. . . a toy to play with while you are waiting for them to find the part you
want.

I have seen the results of some of the tests that show how synthetic oil
"clings" to mechanical parts better than conventional oil. It was part of
the data that convinced me to start using it. In addition to this,
synthetic oil flows more freely at low temperatures. For this reason, even
with out the increased molecular bonding, synthetic oil will start
circulating and lubricating faster that conventional oil will on a cold
morning when the temp is 15 degrees.


"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
Frank,
Yes, I am aware of the wear that takes place during start up. However, I
know
of no evidence that synthetic oil possesses adhesive properties that
reduce wear
during this time. For years, additive manufacturers have been displaying
plastic gear arrangements in a clear box. The hand crank is turned and
the oil
with their additive ribbons around the gears while the oil without drips
off.
Although impressive, it does not indicate what is happening at the gear
mesh.
In both cases, there is full film lubrication at the mesh and the additive
provides no additional benefit. As I mentioned in my response to Gene,
Crusader
Marine came to the conclusion that there was no benefit to using
synthetics in
their engines under normal operating conditions. Obviously, if they felt
that
there was any chance that warranty claims might be reduced with the use of
synthetics, they would certainly recommend, if not require, their use.

On the other hand, there are industrial applications where synthetic oils
and
greases have proven to be far superior to their conventional counterparts.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Jim,

You sound like you are well versed in the matters of internal combustion
engine lubrication. You are correct that oil contamination is a major
factor in oil breakdown and that is why oil should be changed regularly.
Although many synthetic oil users believe in extended periods between
oil
changes, that is one thing that I do not buy into mainly because of the
issues that you mentioned. In addition to contamination, heat and
mechanical forces are also causes of oil breakdown.

The fact is, that no matter whant kind of oil you use, as soon as you
put it
in and start the engine, the breakdown process starts and conventional
oil
will break down faster than synthetic. Even after only 1,000 miles,
conventional oils will have lost much more of their protective
properties
than synthetic oils.

I suspect that you are also aware of the fact that for the typical
automotive engine, a large amount of wear occurs during engine startup
when
all of the oil is still in the pan. Because of the molecular properties
of
synthetic oil, it adheres to engine components much better than
conventional
oil thus providing more protection at startup.

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
I think you are getting your balls in a bunch. You are confusing
extreme
pressure properties of certain types of lubricants with the ability of
both
synthetic and conventional oils to operate satisfactorily in the
typical
boundary layer lubrication environment of an internal combustion
engine.
You
need to read up on tribology and the mechanics of an oil film in plain
bearing
applications as well as sliding motion applications. The most
detrimental
aspect of lubrication in an internal combustion engine is
contamination
from the
combustion process. Unlike a gear box application, the oil in an
engine
is
subject to the byproducts of the combustion process as well as unburnt
fuel.
For this reason, changing the oil and filter on a regular basis is
much
more
important than the type of oil used.



"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Well, I'm not sure what that quart of "Volvo Duraplus Synthetic Oil"
is
that
is sitting right in front of me as I write this message is but it
sure
looks
like synthetic oil to me. I suppose that it could be manufactured
by
some
other company and Volvo just puts their name on it.

You are correct, that the temperature characteristics of synthetic
oil
are a
big advantage of synthetics but it goes much further than that. The
molecular structure of synthetic oil is also much more consistent
than
that
of conventional oil. Consider this analogy:

Lets say you have a bunch of steel balls of all different sizes and
you
thrown them down on a concrete floor and then throw a board on top
of
them
and step on it. As you surf across the steel balls on top of the
board,
you
are really only ridinng on the large balls. The surfaces on these
few
balls
will soon wear down and the ride becomes rough. This is how
conventional
oils works.

Now you do the same thing with another bunch of balls that are all
the
same
exact size. Since they are all the same size, the board rides
evenly
across
all of the balls at the same time. Since all of the balls are
supporting
the board, they do not wear down nearly as quickly and the ride
starts
smoother and stays smoother for much loinger. That is what
synthetic
oil
does.

Yes, synthetic oil is more expensive but it's cheaper than a new
eingine.

Frank

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
Volvo does not make any oil, synthetic or conventional.
Statements
like
"synthetic is definitely much better" are meaningless. Synthetic
lubricants
have properties which make them a better choice for certain
applications.
If
the application does not take advantage of these properties, there
is
nothing
to be gained by using them. One of their greatest attributes is
a
more
linear temperature vs. viscosity curve. There is a misconception
that
synthetics are simply higher quality. This is not the case.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

30 wt refers to the viscosity charactersitics of the oil. It
can
still
be
either conventional or synthetic. As a matter of fact, Volvo
makes
a
straight 30 wt synthetic oil for its marine engines.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On 16 Dec 2003 17:09:51 -0800, (Bear)
wrote:

(Bear) revised earlier message
.com...

'97 Chapparal w/ a Volvo-Penta 5.7L Carb w/ SX Outdrive

Questions:

1) Volvo pushes synthetics for crankcase and outdrive, yet
all
the
boat places around me (Austin - San Antonio) said to use
regular
20w-50 motor oil in crankcase and non-suynthetic in
outdrive...
Of course they said to change every 100 hours or per
season.
Experience / Opinions?

2) Any thoughts / experience on spark plugs for this
motor???

Thanks!

Hmmm, the people I talk to in Ohio say to use straight 30 wt
in
my
1989
5.7.

My Mercruiser owners manual specifically does not recommend synthetic oil.
"The use of non-detergent oils, multi-viscosity oils (other than Quicksilver
25W-40), synthetic oils, low quality oils, or oils that contain solid
additives are specifically not recommended."


"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
I think you are getting your balls in a bunch. You are confusing extreme
pressure properties of certain types of lubricants with the ability of
both
synthetic and conventional oils to operate satisfactorily in the typical
boundary layer lubrication environment of an internal combustion engine.
You
need to read up on tribology and the mechanics of an oil film in plain
bearing
applications as well as sliding motion applications. The most detrimental
aspect of lubrication in an internal combustion engine is contamination
from the
combustion process. Unlike a gear box application, the oil in an engine
is
subject to the byproducts of the combustion process as well as unburnt
fuel.
For this reason, changing the oil and filter on a regular basis is much
more
important than the type of oil used.



"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

Well, I'm not sure what that quart of "Volvo Duraplus Synthetic Oil" is
that
is sitting right in front of me as I write this message is but it sure
looks
like synthetic oil to me. I suppose that it could be manufactured by
some
other company and Volvo just puts their name on it.

You are correct, that the temperature characteristics of synthetic oil
are a
big advantage of synthetics but it goes much further than that. The
molecular structure of synthetic oil is also much more consistent than
that
of conventional oil. Consider this analogy:

Lets say you have a bunch of steel balls of all different sizes and you
thrown them down on a concrete floor and then throw a board on top of
them
and step on it. As you surf across the steel balls on top of the board,
you
are really only ridinng on the large balls. The surfaces on these few
balls
will soon wear down and the ride becomes rough. This is how
conventional
oils works.

Now you do the same thing with another bunch of balls that are all the
same
exact size. Since they are all the same size, the board rides evenly
across
all of the balls at the same time. Since all of the balls are
supporting
the board, they do not wear down nearly as quickly and the ride starts
smoother and stays smoother for much loinger. That is what synthetic
oil
does.

Yes, synthetic oil is more expensive but it's cheaper than a new
eingine.

Frank

"Jim Kelly" wrote in message
...
Volvo does not make any oil, synthetic or conventional. Statements
like
"synthetic is definitely much better" are meaningless. Synthetic
lubricants
have properties which make them a better choice for certain
applications.
If
the application does not take advantage of these properties, there is
nothing
to be gained by using them. One of their greatest attributes is a
more
linear temperature vs. viscosity curve. There is a misconception that
synthetics are simply higher quality. This is not the case.

"Frank Taylor, Jr." wrote:

30 wt refers to the viscosity charactersitics of the oil. It can
still
be
either conventional or synthetic. As a matter of fact, Volvo makes
a
straight 30 wt synthetic oil for its marine engines.

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On 16 Dec 2003 17:09:51 -0800, (Bear) wrote:

(Bear) revised earlier message
.com...

'97 Chapparal w/ a Volvo-Penta 5.7L Carb w/ SX Outdrive

Questions:

1) Volvo pushes synthetics for crankcase and outdrive, yet all
the
boat places around me (Austin - San Antonio) said to use
regular
20w-50 motor oil in crankcase and non-suynthetic in
outdrive...
Of course they said to change every 100 hours or per season.
Experience / Opinions?

2) Any thoughts / experience on spark plugs for this motor???

Thanks!

Hmmm, the people I talk to in Ohio say to use straight 30 wt in
my
1989
5.7.