On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 19:25:14 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:46:18 -0400, John wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:41:11 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

So change the mask more often. The mask is to be worn when shopping or whatever,
not all day. I went to Costco this morning. All were in masks. Maybe they wore
them for a whole hour while shopping. No sweat, and I didn't spit in it. There
may have been a bit of condensation. But, I'll guarantee that that if I had
coughed or sneezed, much less 'contamination' would be spread than if I had no
mask.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Wrong again. Put your food coloring in your mouth and then cough. Do it with and
without the mask. See which allows the least food coloring to spew out. You need
to get real.


OK great now keep the mask on, breathing through it for a few minutes
and hat food coloring will have come through. stand next to your
wife's favorite white linen table cloth and sneeze. Call me when you
get out of surgery ;-)

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.

When I remove the mask it gets put in a dog poop bag and dumped in the washing
machine.

A little thinking goes a long way, Greg. The cloth masks (use a tightly woven
sheet) are not N95 respirators. But to argue that they won't reduce the aerosol
from a cough or sneeze is ridiculous - regardless of how much you've painted and
sanded.

So people only get a "little bit infected".
Isn't that like a little pregnant?

If the aerosol in the room is reduced by 80%, my chances of breathing it are
less. That's the name of the game. Reducing risk, given that folks have to eat.

OTOH does it do anything at all if you are not coughing and sneezing?

Other folks may be coughing or sneezing. And, if I've caught the virus, I'll
probably be coughing. That's one of the first symptoms. Also, as one with mild
emphysema, I cough every now and then anyway.

Most of us aren't.

Good, but some of us are.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:00:32 -0400, John wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 19:25:14 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:46:18 -0400, John wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:41:11 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

So change the mask more often. The mask is to be worn when shopping or whatever,
not all day. I went to Costco this morning. All were in masks. Maybe they wore
them for a whole hour while shopping. No sweat, and I didn't spit in it. There
may have been a bit of condensation. But, I'll guarantee that that if I had
coughed or sneezed, much less 'contamination' would be spread than if I had no
mask.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Wrong again. Put your food coloring in your mouth and then cough. Do it with and
without the mask. See which allows the least food coloring to spew out. You need
to get real.


OK great now keep the mask on, breathing through it for a few minutes
and hat food coloring will have come through. stand next to your
wife's favorite white linen table cloth and sneeze. Call me when you
get out of surgery ;-)

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.


Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.

When I remove the mask it gets put in a dog poop bag and dumped in the washing
machine.

A little thinking goes a long way, Greg. The cloth masks (use a tightly woven
sheet) are not N95 respirators. But to argue that they won't reduce the aerosol
from a cough or sneeze is ridiculous - regardless of how much you've painted and
sanded.

So people only get a "little bit infected".
Isn't that like a little pregnant?

If the aerosol in the room is reduced by 80%, my chances of breathing it are
less. That's the name of the game. Reducing risk, given that folks have to eat.


So you are only a little pregnant.

OTOH does it do anything at all if you are not coughing and sneezing?

Other folks may be coughing or sneezing. And, if I've caught the virus, I'll
probably be coughing. That's one of the first symptoms. Also, as one with mild
emphysema, I cough every now and then anyway.

Most of us aren't.

Good, but some of us are.

If you are hacking up a lung in the store, maybe you should be wearing
a mask.

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 4/30/2020 7:32 PM, wrote:


On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.



For some reason Greg is having a difficult time grasping this.
The virus is being carried in the droplets of a sneeze, cough
or even talking. How far those droplets can travel is the
issue. A mask helps reduce how far they go.

I've seen computer models of a person sneezing in a simulated
supermarket. The idea that the virus in the droplets only
going a few feet was disproved. Some of the droplets were
going over to the next isle of the market. Another model
showed how far droplets could travel just in normal speech.
In many cases it was more than the recommended six feet.

If all it takes is wearing an inexpensive mask when in contact
with the public to help reduce the spread of this thing, what's
the big deal? Every little bit helps as I see it.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 20:07:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/30/2020 7:32 PM, wrote:


On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.



For some reason Greg is having a difficult time grasping this.
The virus is being carried in the droplets of a sneeze, cough
or even talking. How far those droplets can travel is the
issue. A mask helps reduce how far they go.

I've seen computer models of a person sneezing in a simulated
supermarket. The idea that the virus in the droplets only
going a few feet was disproved. Some of the droplets were
going over to the next isle of the market. Another model
showed how far droplets could travel just in normal speech.
In many cases it was more than the recommended six feet.

If all it takes is wearing an inexpensive mask when in contact
with the public to help reduce the spread of this thing, what's
the big deal? Every little bit helps as I see it.


You are assuming I am coughing and sneezing and I am not.
It is like wearing a rubber if you are not having sex and in the case
of these masks. reusing the same rubber over and over if you are ....
even if it has holes in it.

On 4/30/2020 10:15 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 20:07:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/30/2020 7:32 PM, wrote:


On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.



For some reason Greg is having a difficult time grasping this.
The virus is being carried in the droplets of a sneeze, cough
or even talking. How far those droplets can travel is the
issue. A mask helps reduce how far they go.

I've seen computer models of a person sneezing in a simulated
supermarket. The idea that the virus in the droplets only
going a few feet was disproved. Some of the droplets were
going over to the next isle of the market. Another model
showed how far droplets could travel just in normal speech.
In many cases it was more than the recommended six feet.

If all it takes is wearing an inexpensive mask when in contact
with the public to help reduce the spread of this thing, what's
the big deal? Every little bit helps as I see it.


You are assuming I am coughing and sneezing and I am not.
It is like wearing a rubber if you are not having sex and in the case
of these masks. reusing the same rubber over and over if you are ....
even if it has holes in it.


Good grief. Well, fortunately it doesn't appear that the virus
can be spread on the Internet or posting on rec.boats. Yet. :-)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:32:38 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.

But the droplets and dust are still on the mask, waiting to be
projected across the room with those sneezes everyone seems so afraid
of. Since this is really talking about being in a store, the fact that
you are only spraying counters and merchandise that is a foot or two
in front of you is not that consoling. I understand John carries a bag
and he carefully puts his mask in there but that is not what I see
happening. People pull it off and shove it in their pocket, with their
keys, money or whatever else they carry around. A woman shoving it in
her purse is even more disgusting since everything she owns is in that
purse. You can wash your hands all you like but if your pocket or
purse is infected, you are not accomplishing much.

wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:32:38 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.

But the droplets and dust are still on the mask, waiting to be
projected across the room with those sneezes everyone seems so afraid
of. Since this is really talking about being in a store, the fact that
you are only spraying counters and merchandise that is a foot or two
in front of you is not that consoling. I understand John carries a bag
and he carefully puts his mask in there but that is not what I see
happening. People pull it off and shove it in their pocket, with their
keys, money or whatever else they carry around. A woman shoving it in
her purse is even more disgusting since everything she owns is in that
purse. You can wash your hands all you like but if your pocket or
purse is infected, you are not accomplishing much.


You sneeze with the mask on, those droplets ain’t goin as far as no mask.

On Fri, 1 May 2020 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:32:38 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.

But the droplets and dust are still on the mask, waiting to be
projected across the room with those sneezes everyone seems so afraid
of. Since this is really talking about being in a store, the fact that
you are only spraying counters and merchandise that is a foot or two
in front of you is not that consoling. I understand John carries a bag
and he carefully puts his mask in there but that is not what I see
happening. People pull it off and shove it in their pocket, with their
keys, money or whatever else they carry around. A woman shoving it in
her purse is even more disgusting since everything she owns is in that
purse. You can wash your hands all you like but if your pocket or
purse is infected, you are not accomplishing much.


You sneeze with the mask on, those droplets ain’t goin as far as no mask.

But if they land on the counter in front of you or the apples, celery
or what ever, what difference does it make? You are not only spreading
your germs, you are spreading all the ones you vacuumed up in your
day.

On 5/1/2020 2:24 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2020 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:32:38 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:10:27 -0400, wrote:

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Bull****.


So you are saying they don't stop any pathogens. The ones you
encounter pass through 100%.

===

That's not entirely accurate. Masks are very effective at stopping
droplets and dust. They act as carriers of the virus.

But the droplets and dust are still on the mask, waiting to be
projected across the room with those sneezes everyone seems so afraid
of. Since this is really talking about being in a store, the fact that
you are only spraying counters and merchandise that is a foot or two
in front of you is not that consoling. I understand John carries a bag
and he carefully puts his mask in there but that is not what I see
happening. People pull it off and shove it in their pocket, with their
keys, money or whatever else they carry around. A woman shoving it in
her purse is even more disgusting since everything she owns is in that
purse. You can wash your hands all you like but if your pocket or
purse is infected, you are not accomplishing much.



You sneeze with the mask on, those droplets ain’t goin as far as no mask.

But if they land on the counter in front of you or the apples, celery
or what ever, what difference does it make? You are not only spreading
your germs, you are spreading all the ones you vacuumed up in your
day.


I give up.


--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com