On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:02:42 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state
representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.


Maybe here our masks last longer. A really humid days 80%. Maybe fog.
Normal is the 25-40% range.

I just walked out in the yard with my Bacharach sling. I get 85 dry
bulb, 78 wet bulb = 72% RH and this is the dry season.
I lived in DC for almost 40 years and John will not see much different
in a month or so. By August it can easily be hotter and as humid there
as it is here.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:49:08 -0400, John wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:02:42 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state
representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.


Maybe here our masks last longer. A really humid days 80%. Maybe fog.
Normal is the 25-40% range.

Greg's just being argumentative. But then again, maybe he does fill up a mask
with spit, sweat, and condensation in an hour shopping.

I was really thinking more about the workers there but if I am in and
out of my car much, I can get pretty sweaty. The car will be over 120
if you are gone more than 15 minutes, parked in the sun.
That is the warning they give us about leaving kids or pets in the
car.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:20:02 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:02:42 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state
representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.


Maybe here our masks last longer. A really humid days 80%. Maybe fog.
Normal is the 25-40% range.

I just walked out in the yard with my Bacharach sling. I get 85 dry
bulb, 78 wet bulb = 72% RH and this is the dry season.
I lived in DC for almost 40 years and John will not see much different
in a month or so. By August it can easily be hotter and as humid there
as it is here.

Luckily, most of our stores up here, which is where I'd wear a mask, are air
conditioned.

Aren't yours?
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:23:24 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:49:08 -0400, John wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:02:42 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state
representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.


Maybe here our masks last longer. A really humid days 80%. Maybe fog.
Normal is the 25-40% range.

Greg's just being argumentative. But then again, maybe he does fill up a mask
with spit, sweat, and condensation in an hour shopping.

I was really thinking more about the workers there but if I am in and
out of my car much, I can get pretty sweaty. The car will be over 120
if you are gone more than 15 minutes, parked in the sun.
That is the warning they give us about leaving kids or pets in the
car.

Why would one wear a mask in a hot car? Silly.

And, the workers up here are working in air conditioned stores. In grocery
stores, no one is running!

Get real!
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 14:22:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/29/2020 1:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.



Greg, I don't think the CDC or local governments think people are
wearing a mask all day long and certainly not grinding or painting.

Yeah they aren't trying to stop particles that are 50 or 100 microns,
they think you are stopping a 0.3 micron virus with that do rag.
The CDC/NIH made a 180 turn on this in a couple of weeks bowing to
political pressure to be able to say we are doing something.



The "order" is to wear one when going into a store for groceries or
if stopping by your convenience store to pick up a loaf of bread.

I have a few I keep in my truck. I put one on as requested just
before I go into a store and take it off when I get back into the
truck. One mask is good for two or three days using it like that.

Sounds more like a science fair experiment than a sanitation device.


I have a large box of disposable gloves. I just trash them after
every use.

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:30:13 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 14:22:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/29/2020 1:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.



Greg, I don't think the CDC or local governments think people are
wearing a mask all day long and certainly not grinding or painting.

Yeah they aren't trying to stop particles that are 50 or 100 microns,
they think you are stopping a 0.3 micron virus with that do rag.
The CDC/NIH made a 180 turn on this in a couple of weeks bowing to
political pressure to be able to say we are doing something.



The "order" is to wear one when going into a store for groceries or
if stopping by your convenience store to pick up a loaf of bread.

I have a few I keep in my truck. I put one on as requested just
before I go into a store and take it off when I get back into the
truck. One mask is good for two or three days using it like that.

Sounds more like a science fair experiment than a sanitation device.


I have a large box of disposable gloves. I just trash them after
every use.

Greg, when you go shopping, without a mask, just tell the folks around you that
they're wasting their time.

If you honestly believe that a mask won't greatly reduce the aerosol from a
cough or sneeze, then you're displaying a great lack of common sense.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On 4/29/2020 5:30 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 14:22:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/29/2020 1:41 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.



Greg, I don't think the CDC or local governments think people are
wearing a mask all day long and certainly not grinding or painting.




Yeah they aren't trying to stop particles that are 50 or 100 microns,
they think you are stopping a 0.3 micron virus with that do rag.
The CDC/NIH made a 180 turn on this in a couple of weeks bowing to
political pressure to be able to say we are doing something.


Greg, I think the early spring heat and humidity in Florida
has affected your thought process. Either that or you live
in an alternate universe.

The cloth "do" masks are *not* intended to stop a .3 micron
virus. They are intended to stop *your* aerosol spray from
a sneeze or cough from landing on other people or surfaces.

Even the HEPA filters used in airplanes
that filter and exchange all the cabin air every few minutes
won't filter a virus. A virus is typically smaller than .3
microns. Those filters are for airborne bacteria which is
much larger than a virus.

Nobody is saying you need to wear a mask all day anyway.
Only time you need to put one on is just before you enter
a store and you can remove it once you get back in your
vehicle.





The "order" is to wear one when going into a store for groceries or
if stopping by your convenience store to pick up a loaf of bread.

I have a few I keep in my truck. I put one on as requested just
before I go into a store and take it off when I get back into the
truck. One mask is good for two or three days using it like that.

Sounds more like a science fair experiment than a sanitation device.


I have a large box of disposable gloves. I just trash them after
every use.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:23:24 -0400, wrote:

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do.

===

You probably know this but if you are doing much spray painting, you
need something that will filter the VOCs. An N95 mask will not do
that.

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/3m--6000-series-half-facepiece-respirator-large--337538?recordNum=15

VOCs can do nasty things to your central nervous system and brain.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 15:46:18 -0400, John wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:41:11 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

So change the mask more often. The mask is to be worn when shopping or whatever,
not all day. I went to Costco this morning. All were in masks. Maybe they wore
them for a whole hour while shopping. No sweat, and I didn't spit in it. There
may have been a bit of condensation. But, I'll guarantee that that if I had
coughed or sneezed, much less 'contamination' would be spread than if I had no
mask.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Wrong again. Put your food coloring in your mouth and then cough. Do it with and
without the mask. See which allows the least food coloring to spew out. You need
to get real.


OK great now keep the mask on, breathing through it for a few minutes
and hat food coloring will have come through. stand next to your
wife's favorite white linen table cloth and sneeze. Call me when you
get out of surgery ;-)

That will also include all of the pathogens you vacuumed up in your
travels too.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.

When I remove the mask it gets put in a dog poop bag and dumped in the washing
machine.

A little thinking goes a long way, Greg. The cloth masks (use a tightly woven
sheet) are not N95 respirators. But to argue that they won't reduce the aerosol
from a cough or sneeze is ridiculous - regardless of how much you've painted and
sanded.

So people only get a "little bit infected".
Isn't that like a little pregnant?

OTOH does it do anything at all if you are not coughing and sneezing?

Most of us aren't.

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 18:02:42 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 09:31:28 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 22:39:44 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 18:47:21 -0400, John wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:11:05 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 28 Apr 2020 08:46:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/28/2020 8:08 AM, Tim wrote:


And just found that out by losing a law suit against down state
representative Darren bailey.

Pritzker is finding that he’s not as well loved as he thought he was.

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...ports/2262560/



Some of this stuff is getting a little out of hand, IMO.

Our town just issued an "order" requiring everybody over 2 years old to
wear a mask when going to an "essential" store ... grocery, convenience,
gas stations, home improvement outlets, etc. Failure to obey can result
in fines.

The town's order also says you can't use N-95 or surgical type masks.
You are required to use a cloth mask that I guess you are supposed to
make yourself. I had dug up half a box of "procedural" masks that I
bought about 3 years ago at CVS for use when mowing the lawn. Now the
town says I can't use them because a procedural mask is considered a
surgical mask.

I have no problem with cooperating with this but it's not necessary to
issue an "order" enforceable with fines.

Wearing a mask is a commonsense courtesy to others. It doesn't protect
*you* ... it protects others if you are in close proximity and you
sneeze or cough.

When this whole thing started the public was asked to voluntarily
practice social distancing and limiting contact with others. For
us old farts, we were asked to voluntarily go into hibernation.

The whole purpose of this was to "flatten the curve" to prevent
hospitals from becoming overwhelmed with covid-19 cases.
That's all.

The public voluntarily responded and hospitals were never overwhelmed
even in places like NY and NYC. In fact, many now have empty beds and
hospitals are laying off medical staff.

We need to resist having local state governments issuing "orders"
enforceable by fines, especially when the voluntary efforts
of the public are working. Slippery-slope kind of thing.

All we need to do is to continue applying commonsense.


I am waiting to see a whole class of Covid related charges tossed as
soon as they get to court.
The mask thing will probably go first because there is absolutely zero
proof the bandanna mask does anything.
Even Fauci started out saying that and then I imagine he was prodded
into saying they *might* help. How are you going to tell thousands of
"Nannas" that they are wasting their time making masks.
I bet you don't see medical professionals wearing a home made mask.

Just think about it a minute. This is a porous material that you are
breathing through so it is collecting saliva. For an employee in a
store that is for hours. It is probably soaking wet. (I know my N-95s
won't last an hour in the shop until they are soaked).
Now I have this wet rag on my face, collecting all of my germs along
with any other germs that were in the air. There is zero filtering
capability for anything much bigger than 50-60 microns, even if the
rag is dry, wet it is a conduit. (Covid is 0.3 microns) I am
breathing the contamination in and if I sneeze, the germs are going
for a ride, infecting anyone or anything within range. How is that
helping anything.
All of that assumes you handle the mask properly and it doesn't become
a worse vector when you take it off and shove it in your pocket.


Try spitting through a mask.

Put some food coloring on the mask and sneeze through it. Don't do it
near anything expensive.

Wrong. Put the food coloring in your mouth. Then sneeze through it. Now do the
same without the mask.

Common sense rules.

We are talking about what happens to the contamination ON and IN the
mask when you sneeze through it., If you are wearing a mask for any
length of time on a warm day it will be soaked with sweat, saliva and
condensation. Now blow air through that. A T shirt is not going to
stop anything. It might slow down the range a little but you are still
contaminating any surface nearby and surface contamination seems to be
the main vector for this disease.

I probably have as much experience with masks, real N-95 masks, as
anyone here, just because of the amount of grinding and spray painting
I do. They are DONE in an hour or two. That is not anywhere close to
the ineffective do rags people call a mask these days.
I say again, wear your mask for an hour or so outside (until it gets
pretty moist), spray a little food color solution on it, inside or
out, it really doesn't make much difference, then blow air through it.
See what comes out.

Next, what do you do with your mask when you take it off? Shove it in
your pocket for next time? Throw it away?
Same with your gloves if you go that far.
Most of this crap is politically motivated feel good gestures having
nothing to do with proper sanitation. My nurse relative says that.


Maybe here our masks last longer. A really humid days 80%. Maybe fog.
Normal is the 25-40% range.

I just walked out in the yard with my Bacharach sling. I get 85 dry
bulb, 78 wet bulb = 72% RH and this is the dry season.
I lived in DC for almost 40 years and John will not see much different
in a month or so. By August it can easily be hotter and as humid there
as it is here.


We are looking at some precipitation coming in and the present humidity is
65%. Overcast and windy.