[Mr. Luddite]

On 11/4/2014 9:04 AM, Harrold wrote:
On 11/4/2014 8:34 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 7:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/3/2014 8:38 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:57:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The registration document required on dealer purchases can trace the
serial number of the firearm from the manufacturer to the dealer and
then to the original purchaser. That record of custody becomes
broken
when you do a private transfer.

===

Exactly what problem or crime do you expect to solve with this
unbroken chain of custody? I don't hear law enforcement agencies
clamoring that they really need this. In mot crimes that I hear
about, the original owner of the gun does not seem to be an important
question.



In itself registration won't prevent crimes Wayne but it may start to
reduce the number of guns readily available to those who commit them.
Right now it is estimated that between 20 and 40 percent of the guns in
the USA are not registered anywhere.

How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be in the
people's hands?

It's a process. It won't return any rewards overnight.

You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars.

I agree that from what I've read most in law enforcement do not support
many of the contemplated new gun-control proposals but they are more
related to things like gun types, magazine sizes, etc. There isn't
much
on the concept of background checks and registration, mainly I think
because those laws already exist for guns purchased through a dealer.

Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to require all
states to implement ineffective laws.



Can't help myself. My responses to your questions and comments:

Bar: "How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be
in the people's hands?"

Me: "As many as they want. I am not against owning guns"


Bar: "You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars."

Me: "False equivalency. Cars are not a cause of violent
crimes committed by criminals" Maybe "get-a-way cars" :-)

Bar: "Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to
require all states to implement ineffective laws.

Me: "The laws that require a background check and registration
for guns purchased from a licensed dealer already exists
in *all* the states. It's a federal law.

At issue are the guns acquired by other means that are not
registered and traceable to the current owner or possessor of
the gun.

Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth
trying?

That's my argument.








I thought you were done with this thread. ;-)


Ok. I am. It's funny though. You know me. In Massachusetts my views
are considered to be very conservative. One thing I learned in this
thread though is that in many places in the rest of the country I'd be
considered a card-carrying progressive liberal. :-)

Oh well. It's all relative I guess.

[True North[_2_]]

On Tuesday, 4 November 2014 10:36:47 UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 8:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 7:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/3/2014 8:38 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:57:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The registration document required on dealer purchases can trace the
serial number of the firearm from the manufacturer to the dealer and
then to the original purchaser. That record of custody becomes broken
when you do a private transfer.

===

Exactly what problem or crime do you expect to solve with this
unbroken chain of custody? I don't hear law enforcement agencies
clamoring that they really need this. In mot crimes that I hear
about, the original owner of the gun does not seem to be an important
question.



In itself registration won't prevent crimes Wayne but it may start to
reduce the number of guns readily available to those who commit them.
Right now it is estimated that between 20 and 40 percent of the guns in
the USA are not registered anywhere.

How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be in the
people's hands?

It's a process. It won't return any rewards overnight.

You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars.

I agree that from what I've read most in law enforcement do not support
many of the contemplated new gun-control proposals but they are more
related to things like gun types, magazine sizes, etc. There isn't much
on the concept of background checks and registration, mainly I think
because those laws already exist for guns purchased through a dealer.

Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to require all
states to implement ineffective laws.



Can't help myself. My responses to your questions and comments:

Bar: "How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be
in the people's hands?"

Me: "As many as they want. I am not against owning guns"


Bar: "You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars."

Me: "False equivalency. Cars are not a cause of violent
crimes committed by criminals" Maybe "get-a-way cars" :-)

Bar: "Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to
require all states to implement ineffective laws.

Me: "The laws that require a background check and registration
for guns purchased from a licensed dealer already exists
in *all* the states. It's a federal law.

At issue are the guns acquired by other means that are not
registered and traceable to the current owner or possessor of
the gun.

Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.



===

Your cure is worse than the disease. Take a look at that "friend or
family member" statistic. How do you propose to fix that?



If you are the registered owner of a gun that is used in a crime, you
share the responsibility for the commitment of that crime unless it is
reported as stolen or lost within a time prescribed by law (typically
24-48 hrs).

Transfer of ownership to friends or family requires state registration
by new owner. This does not require paying a FFL. In MA we can do it
on-line and it's free as long as the new owner holds a valid gun permit.

Bingo!
If Johnny's grandson shoots someone or commits a crime with that fancy rifle, Johnny should share a cell with the kid.

[Wayne.B]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 06:53:48 -0800 (PST), True North
wrote:

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.



===

Your cure is worse than the disease. Take a look at that "friend or
family member" statistic. How do you propose to fix that?



If you are the registered owner of a gun that is used in a crime, you
share the responsibility for the commitment of that crime unless it is
reported as stolen or lost within a time prescribed by law (typically
24-48 hrs).

Transfer of ownership to friends or family requires state registration
by new owner. This does not require paying a FFL. In MA we can do it
on-line and it's free as long as the new owner holds a valid gun permit.

Bingo!
If Johnny's grandson shoots someone or commits a crime with that fancy rifle, Johnny should share a cell with the kid.

===

None of that prevents the crime. What it does do it make it less
likely that future generations will grow up to be responsible gun
owners, and that would be unfortunate.

[Califbill]

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 11/4/2014 8:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 7:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/3/2014 8:38 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:57:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The registration document required on dealer purchases can trace the
serial number of the firearm from the manufacturer to the dealer and
then to the original purchaser. That record of custody becomes broken
when you do a private transfer.

===

Exactly what problem or crime do you expect to solve with this
unbroken chain of custody? I don't hear law enforcement agencies
clamoring that they really need this. In mot crimes that I hear
about, the original owner of the gun does not seem to be an important
question.



In itself registration won't prevent crimes Wayne but it may start to
reduce the number of guns readily available to those who commit them.
Right now it is estimated that between 20 and 40 percent of the guns in
the USA are not registered anywhere.

How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be in the
people's hands?

It's a process. It won't return any rewards overnight.

You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars.

I agree that from what I've read most in law enforcement do not support
many of the contemplated new gun-control proposals but they are more
related to things like gun types, magazine sizes, etc. There isn't much
on the concept of background checks and registration, mainly I think
because those laws already exist for guns purchased through a dealer.

Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to require all
states to implement ineffective laws.



Can't help myself. My responses to your questions and comments:

Bar: "How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be
in the people's hands?"

Me: "As many as they want. I am not against owning guns"


Bar: "You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars."

Me: "False equivalency. Cars are not a cause of violent
crimes committed by criminals" Maybe "get-a-way cars" :-)

Bar: "Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to
require all states to implement ineffective laws.

Me: "The laws that require a background check and registration
for guns purchased from a licensed dealer already exists
in *all* the states. It's a federal law.

At issue are the guns acquired by other means that are not
registered and traceable to the current owner or possessor of
the gun.

Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.



===

Your cure is worse than the disease. Take a look at that "friend or
family member" statistic. How do you propose to fix that?



If you are the registered owner of a gun that is used in a crime, you
share the responsibility for the commitment of that crime unless it is
reported as stolen or lost within a time prescribed by law (typically 24-48 hrs).

Transfer of ownership to friends or family requires state registration by
new owner. This does not require paying a FFL. In MA we can do it
on-line and it's free as long as the new owner holds a valid gun permit.

You may not know the family member stole the gun for a lot longer than 24
hours. How many check their guns daily? As to ineffective laws. They are
even worse than the gun problem. People just start ignoring laws, if you
have bunches of stupid laws. Prohibition spawned criminal dynasties, that
exist today, because of one really stupid admendment to the constitution.

[Califbill]

wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 11:07:33 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Prohibition spawned criminal dynasties, that
exist today, because of one really stupid admendment to the constitution.

They perpetuated that when they simply traded prohibition for the drug
war.

Same dynasties, with a few added.

[Poco Loco]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 06:53:48 -0800 (PST), True North
wrote:

On Tuesday, 4 November 2014 10:36:47 UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 8:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 7:14 AM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/3/2014 8:38 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 19:57:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The registration document required on dealer purchases can trace the
serial number of the firearm from the manufacturer to the dealer and
then to the original purchaser. That record of custody becomes broken
when you do a private transfer.

===

Exactly what problem or crime do you expect to solve with this
unbroken chain of custody? I don't hear law enforcement agencies
clamoring that they really need this. In mot crimes that I hear
about, the original owner of the gun does not seem to be an important
question.



In itself registration won't prevent crimes Wayne but it may start to
reduce the number of guns readily available to those who commit them.
Right now it is estimated that between 20 and 40 percent of the guns in
the USA are not registered anywhere.

How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be in the
people's hands?

It's a process. It won't return any rewards overnight.

You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars.

I agree that from what I've read most in law enforcement do not support
many of the contemplated new gun-control proposals but they are more
related to things like gun types, magazine sizes, etc. There isn't much
on the concept of background checks and registration, mainly I think
because those laws already exist for guns purchased through a dealer.

Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to require all
states to implement ineffective laws.



Can't help myself. My responses to your questions and comments:

Bar: "How many guns should there be in the USA that are allowed to be
in the people's hands?"

Me: "As many as they want. I am not against owning guns"


Bar: "You can stop the same number of car related deaths each year by
outlawing cars."

Me: "False equivalency. Cars are not a cause of violent
crimes committed by criminals" Maybe "get-a-way cars" :-)

Bar: "Again, the laws exist and are ineffective and you want to
require all states to implement ineffective laws.

Me: "The laws that require a background check and registration
for guns purchased from a licensed dealer already exists
in *all* the states. It's a federal law.

At issue are the guns acquired by other means that are not
registered and traceable to the current owner or possessor of
the gun.

Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.



===

Your cure is worse than the disease. Take a look at that "friend or
family member" statistic. How do you propose to fix that?



If you are the registered owner of a gun that is used in a crime, you
share the responsibility for the commitment of that crime unless it is
reported as stolen or lost within a time prescribed by law (typically
24-48 hrs).

Transfer of ownership to friends or family requires state registration
by new owner. This does not require paying a FFL. In MA we can do it
on-line and it's free as long as the new owner holds a valid gun permit.

Bingo!
If Johnny's grandson shoots someone or commits a crime with that fancy rifle, Johnny should share a cell with the kid.

Why? If I went through the FFL process (not required in this state),
would the results be any different? The crime would still have been
committed.

[Poco Loco]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:43:28 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.

Your argument automatically excludes almost 80% of the crime guns
because friends and family may include "borrowed" or "stolen" guns and
it is not likely that these people would ever go to a FFL to hand down
a gun.
There is also about 8% that are not accounted for in that statistic

I am still not sure why the "on the street" number would change that
much if they came from an "illegal source" AKA stolen.

Considering most of the school shooting have involved family guns that
were legally purchased I am not sure that registration is even
significant.

I do find it amusing that after all of this gun show rhetoric, 0.7% of
those guns have showed up in a crime.

BTW "pawn shops" are FFL licensed gun dealers so you can just make the
dealer number 11.1%

And note that no mention is made of 'illegal' purchases at gun shows.
I've been to several in this state. When a weapon is purchased, the
Form 4473 is completed by the buyer and the seller puts the data in a
computer. After a short wait, the transaction is completed. None of
this back door stuff Krause keeps talking about.

[F*O*A*D]

On 11/4/14 2:21 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:43:28 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.

Your argument automatically excludes almost 80% of the crime guns
because friends and family may include "borrowed" or "stolen" guns and
it is not likely that these people would ever go to a FFL to hand down
a gun.
There is also about 8% that are not accounted for in that statistic

I am still not sure why the "on the street" number would change that
much if they came from an "illegal source" AKA stolen.

Considering most of the school shooting have involved family guns that
were legally purchased I am not sure that registration is even
significant.

I do find it amusing that after all of this gun show rhetoric, 0.7% of
those guns have showed up in a crime.

BTW "pawn shops" are FFL licensed gun dealers so you can just make the
dealer number 11.1%

And note that no mention is made of 'illegal' purchases at gun shows.
I've been to several in this state. When a weapon is purchased, the
Form 4473 is completed by the buyer and the seller puts the data in a
computer. After a short wait, the transaction is completed. None of
this back door stuff Krause keeps talking about.


Our boy Johnny apparently is unaware of private sellers who frequent
Virginia gun shows and sell guns to buyers without the benefit of the
instant background check. Those sorts of sales have been on TV news
shows many times but perhaps not the local fox news Channel our boy
Johnny watches.

--
“There’s more idleness and abuse of government favors among the
economically privileged than among the ranks of the disadvantaged.” -
Norman Mailer

[Poco Loco]

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:50:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/4/14 2:21 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:43:28 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.

Your argument automatically excludes almost 80% of the crime guns
because friends and family may include "borrowed" or "stolen" guns and
it is not likely that these people would ever go to a FFL to hand down
a gun.
There is also about 8% that are not accounted for in that statistic

I am still not sure why the "on the street" number would change that
much if they came from an "illegal source" AKA stolen.

Considering most of the school shooting have involved family guns that
were legally purchased I am not sure that registration is even
significant.

I do find it amusing that after all of this gun show rhetoric, 0.7% of
those guns have showed up in a crime.

BTW "pawn shops" are FFL licensed gun dealers so you can just make the
dealer number 11.1%

And note that no mention is made of 'illegal' purchases at gun shows.
I've been to several in this state. When a weapon is purchased, the
Form 4473 is completed by the buyer and the seller puts the data in a
computer. After a short wait, the transaction is completed. None of
this back door stuff Krause keeps talking about.


Our boy Johnny apparently is unaware of private sellers who frequent
Virginia gun shows and sell guns to buyers without the benefit of the
instant background check. Those sorts of sales have been on TV news
shows many times but perhaps not the local fox news Channel our boy
Johnny watches.

Show me. If it made the TV news, then it made the 'paper' news. You've
been spouting the same bull**** over and over, but have yet to back up
your tripe.

This has been a relatively 'ridicule free' thread until your return.
Thanks.

[Mr. Luddite]

On 11/4/2014 4:05 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:50:53 -0500, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 11/4/14 2:21 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:43:28 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 08:34:45 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Here are the stats on guns *used in crimes*:

39.6% are obtained from a friend or family member.
39.2% are obtained "on the street" or from an illegal source.
0.7% are purchased at a gun show.
1% are purchased a flea market.
3.8% are from a pawn shop.
8.3% are bought at FFL licenced retail outlets

So, you can see that the overwhelming majority of guns that end up being
used in a crime come from sources that *do not* require that a chain of
custody is maintained.

That's why the registration of guns is ineffective as it stands today.

If transfers required re-registration to subsequent owners, the number
of guns available "on the street" would diminish over time and those
used in a crime would be more traceable.

We can never completely eliminate gun crimes but when there are 74 or
more shootings in schools in 18 months, don't you think it's worth trying?

That's my argument.

Your argument automatically excludes almost 80% of the crime guns
because friends and family may include "borrowed" or "stolen" guns and
it is not likely that these people would ever go to a FFL to hand down
a gun.
There is also about 8% that are not accounted for in that statistic

I am still not sure why the "on the street" number would change that
much if they came from an "illegal source" AKA stolen.

Considering most of the school shooting have involved family guns that
were legally purchased I am not sure that registration is even
significant.

I do find it amusing that after all of this gun show rhetoric, 0.7% of
those guns have showed up in a crime.

BTW "pawn shops" are FFL licensed gun dealers so you can just make the
dealer number 11.1%

And note that no mention is made of 'illegal' purchases at gun shows.
I've been to several in this state. When a weapon is purchased, the
Form 4473 is completed by the buyer and the seller puts the data in a
computer. After a short wait, the transaction is completed. None of
this back door stuff Krause keeps talking about.


Our boy Johnny apparently is unaware of private sellers who frequent
Virginia gun shows and sell guns to buyers without the benefit of the
instant background check. Those sorts of sales have been on TV news
shows many times but perhaps not the local fox news Channel our boy
Johnny watches.

Show me. If it made the TV news, then it made the 'paper' news. You've
been spouting the same bull**** over and over, but have yet to back up
your tripe.

This has been a relatively 'ridicule free' thread until your return.
Thanks.



John, I saw the report on TV also. It was on Andersen Cooper's AC360
(CNN) I think it was not long after the Sandy Hook thing. Here's the
video for your viewing pleasu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A51Gr0zpX_c