Had to share this story
 

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 09:34:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 8:01 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


The S&W's I bought came with a shell casing in a sealed envelope. The
Sig Sauers came without a casing. The Kimber also came without a
casing, but it did have a sticker on the box saying, "NO SHELL CASING
FOR MARYLAND."


Ah .. That suggests the purpose is other than simply to prove the gun
was test fired.


Interesting:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...ing-technology

"Maryland has already been down the road of requiring that a fired
shell casing be provided for every pistol sold in the state (that
being a simpler type of microstamping). That requirement has not
produced a single criminal conviction in 15 years, and the Maryland
State Police no longer enter the shell casings into a searchable
database both because of the cost and lack of effectiveness of the
technology. In fact, New York recently repealed its shell case
requirement in order to use those funds to hire more state police,
leaving Maryland as the only state that still retains this costly and
ineffective requirement. Repeating the shell casing mistake with a
more expensive, less reliable technology just wastes even more
resources."

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 10:04 AM, KC wrote:
On 11/1/2014 7:39 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/1/2014 2:00 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 22:25:06 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



I did a lot of driving a few years ago back and forth from Florida.
Made
about 11 or 12 trips, about 1500 miles each way over a period of three
years. Many of the trips included hauling a trailer or a boat.

It took 2 and a half days, regardless of how fast I drove.

Did one trip non-stop other than a 20 minute nap and fuel stops. I'll
never do that again.

I used to go to Florida from Southern Md twice a year for years. It is
a shorter ride (950 or so) to St Pete and my fastest trip was a tad
over 14 hours door to door. Usually it was more like 17 or 18 with a
short nap in a truck stop or a rest station along the way (Brunswick
Georgia generally) By then the sun was up and I did the Florida leg.

I had a radar detector but the real aid was the childrens band radio
and choosing your travel time carefully. I did most of the driving at
night but I was a midnight to 8 guy anyway.



The worst part of driving to Florida (or anywhere south of here) is
getting through the southern part of CT, New York and New Jersey.
After that it's a pretty easy drive except for some parts of Maryland.

I used to leave MA at about 11 pm after sleeping in the afternoon or
evening. That would usually get me over the George Washington Bridge in
New York just before the major rush hour traffic.



If you are going through at the wrong time it's worth it to head out 84
which with normal traffic would add about three hours to the trip iirc,
but still better than going through that NE corridor in the afternoon...


Took that route a few times. That's the way we went on the motorcycles
for Rolling Thunder. Left at 5 am from MA and got to Manasas, VA by
mid-afternoon. Nice ride on a bike.

Not so nice a ride in a big, gas powered Class A Motorhome though.
Although the engine was a big GM Vortex something or other, I thought it
was going to blow up sometimes climbing the hills in 2nd or 3rd gear and
the engine racing at about 4K RPM. That's when I realized that rigs
that size really need diesel engines.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 10:34 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 09:34:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 8:01 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


The S&W's I bought came with a shell casing in a sealed envelope. The
Sig Sauers came without a casing. The Kimber also came without a
casing, but it did have a sticker on the box saying, "NO SHELL CASING
FOR MARYLAND."


Ah .. That suggests the purpose is other than simply to prove the gun
was test fired.


Interesting:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...ing-technology

"Maryland has already been down the road of requiring that a fired
shell casing be provided for every pistol sold in the state (that
being a simpler type of microstamping). That requirement has not
produced a single criminal conviction in 15 years, and the Maryland
State Police no longer enter the shell casings into a searchable
database both because of the cost and lack of effectiveness of the
technology. In fact, New York recently repealed its shell case
requirement in order to use those funds to hire more state police,
leaving Maryland as the only state that still retains this costly and
ineffective requirement. Repeating the shell casing mistake with a
more expensive, less reliable technology just wastes even more
resources."



Maybe Massachusetts no longer requires it either although my most recent
purchase (a couple of months ago) of a Sig Sauer P238 came with one.

Had to share this story
 

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 11:11:46 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 10:34 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 09:34:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 8:01 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


The S&W's I bought came with a shell casing in a sealed envelope. The
Sig Sauers came without a casing. The Kimber also came without a
casing, but it did have a sticker on the box saying, "NO SHELL CASING
FOR MARYLAND."


Ah .. That suggests the purpose is other than simply to prove the gun
was test fired.


Interesting:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...ing-technology

"Maryland has already been down the road of requiring that a fired
shell casing be provided for every pistol sold in the state (that
being a simpler type of microstamping). That requirement has not
produced a single criminal conviction in 15 years, and the Maryland
State Police no longer enter the shell casings into a searchable
database both because of the cost and lack of effectiveness of the
technology. In fact, New York recently repealed its shell case
requirement in order to use those funds to hire more state police,
leaving Maryland as the only state that still retains this costly and
ineffective requirement. Repeating the shell casing mistake with a
more expensive, less reliable technology just wastes even more
resources."



Maybe Massachusetts no longer requires it either although my most recent
purchase (a couple of months ago) of a Sig Sauer P238 came with one.


I looked at the P238 when I bought the P938. Nice little gun - a bit
smaller than the P938. I wanted the 9mm so went with the 938. My wife
loves shooting that little bugger.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote:


Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the
express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant.


Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the
tracking of sales/transfers.

Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to
make the buyer fill out the form.
BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It
is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They
still move around.
If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they
love, registration and background checks mean nothing.
Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass
any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there
is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used.



Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is
exactly what gun registration is intended for.

I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it
was registered with the state identifying me as the owner.

When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held
a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was
the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with
the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun.

I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license
number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number.

Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now
registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer.

No FFL or fees required.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 11:44 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:58:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


Certainly does not seem to be true in Florida. Maybe the dealers just
remove it if the manufacturer puts them in there.
The 9mm I bought recently had a trigger lock but it is a joke. A 10
year old with a fingernail file could pop it off.



I'd like to see a trigger lock like that. The ones I have (gun
manufacturer supplied) are pretty well made and substantial.
I took the Ruger 10/22 to the range once and forgot the key.
No way could I or anyone else remove the trigger lock unless we
destroyed something (like the rifle).


This thing is made of plastic. If I get a minute I will give this a
look and see what the easiest way to get it off would be. Obviously I
have tools in the garage that will take just about anything off.

The chamber locks supplied by the gun manufacturers are also pretty high
quality. Sure, maybe a heavy bolt cutter or half an hour with a hack
saw would work but again, the purpose of a trigger or chamber lock is to
help prevent accidental discharge of the firearm by the owner or an
inquisitive visitor when stored in your home. They are not designed to
prevent theft.

10 seconds with a side grinder?


The locks are *required* ... again by law. Even if you purchase a used
firearm from a licensed dealer up here, the dealer is required to
furnish a lock.


I still do not see the value. If your kid is going to be a problem
around your gun, the trigger lock does not prevent access to the gun,
they can play with the gun and the lock just becomes a puzzle for him
and his friends.

When I google how to remove a trigger lock I get hits for the various
brands. Most seem to be destructive of the lock but if you stole the
gun, so what? I would also be curious how hard it is to simply pick
the lock. The one I have looks pretty trivial but I did not spend any
time really looking at it.



I'll repeat again. The locks are *NOT* designed to prevent or even
dissuade theft. They are to help prevent accidental discharge.

The ones I have been supplied are not cheap plastic either. The trigger
lock is metal and would take anyone a while to figure out how to get it
off without the key. A kid that found it in the house (if you were
stupid enough to leave it laying around) isn't going to get it off in
10 seconds, 10 minutes or 10 hours.

The range I shoot at provides cheap plastic chamber "locks".
You are supposed to insert them and lay your gun down on the firing
table whenever the range is down while someone is placing targets, etc.

Not too many people insert them. They just lay the gun on the table and
step back.

Had to share this story
 

On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 11:54:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote:


Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the
express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant.


Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the
tracking of sales/transfers.

Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to
make the buyer fill out the form.
BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It
is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They
still move around.
If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they
love, registration and background checks mean nothing.
Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass
any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there
is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used.



Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is
exactly what gun registration is intended for.

I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it
was registered with the state identifying me as the owner.

When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held
a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was
the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with
the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun.

I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license
number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number.

Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now
registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer.

No FFL or fees required.


You are both law-abiding citizens. Good. Now, when that gun is made
illegal by the state, the state will know from whom the can expect the
gun to be turned in. Or from whom they need to collect the
gun...paying a 'fair' amount for it, of course.

You each had to have licenses, and one of you had to have a computer.
Your laws are preventing poor folks who can't even afford a voter ID
from buying a gun.

Shame on MA.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 11:54 AM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/1/2014 10:34 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 09:34:20 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 8:01 AM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 21:19:40 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/31/2014 8:49 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2014 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Raises another question. Ever wonder why a new gun comes with a spent
shell in the box or case?

To test functionality. And/Or, to build a database of gun "fingerprints", i.e. bullet striations. That info, along with registration, can lead back to the owner.

I have never bought a gun with a case in the box.
I do question the validity of all of these ballistic fingerprint
things if the gun has been used a lot. I agree that if they have the
gun and a recently fired bullet or case, they usually can match them
up but if this gun has several thousand rounds of barrel erosion and
the slings and arrows of dirty ammo going through it, matching up
tool marks from the day it was made is going to be far from exact.

I bet the difference between S/N xxxxx1 and xxxxx2 brand new is less
than xxxx1 to xxxx1 after years of hard use. If the same tool cut the
rifling, won't the tool marks be very close to the same?




Interesting. When was the last time you bought a new gun?

Every gun I have purchased in the past 3-4 years has an envelope with a
spent round casing that was fired from the gun at the factory.

It's also mandatory that new guns come with some type of lock.

Is this a MA thing or is it true everywhere?


The S&W's I bought came with a shell casing in a sealed envelope. The
Sig Sauers came without a casing. The Kimber also came without a
casing, but it did have a sticker on the box saying, "NO SHELL CASING
FOR MARYLAND."


Ah .. That suggests the purpose is other than simply to prove the gun
was test fired.


Interesting:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/201...ing-technology

"Maryland has already been down the road of requiring that a fired
shell casing be provided for every pistol sold in the state (that
being a simpler type of microstamping). That requirement has not
produced a single criminal conviction in 15 years, and the Maryland
State Police no longer enter the shell casings into a searchable
database both because of the cost and lack of effectiveness of the
technology. In fact, New York recently repealed its shell case
requirement in order to use those funds to hire more state police,
leaving Maryland as the only state that still retains this costly and
ineffective requirement. Repeating the shell casing mistake with a
more expensive, less reliable technology just wastes even more
resources."



Maybe Massachusetts no longer requires it either although my most recent
purchase (a couple of months ago) of a Sig Sauer P238 came with one.

Did the FFL who transferred the firearm to you keep the shell casing? If
not, then it isn't needed in your state.


Nope. They are in the box or case and the buyer keeps them.

It seems strange that the manufacturers would bother to include them in
some states and not others regardless if the state uses them.

That's one of the complaints I have about gun laws. They are not
uniform. Every state has it's own set of laws. I can't legally travel
from here to my son's house in SC with a gun in my car because of the
different laws.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 12:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 11:54:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote:


Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the
express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant.


Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the
tracking of sales/transfers.

Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to
make the buyer fill out the form.
BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It
is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They
still move around.
If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they
love, registration and background checks mean nothing.
Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass
any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there
is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used.



Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is
exactly what gun registration is intended for.

I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it
was registered with the state identifying me as the owner.

When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held
a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was
the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with
the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun.

I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license
number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number.

Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now
registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer.

No FFL or fees required.


You are both law-abiding citizens. Good. Now, when that gun is made
illegal by the state, the state will know from whom the can expect the
gun to be turned in. Or from whom they need to collect the
gun...paying a 'fair' amount for it, of course.

You each had to have licenses, and one of you had to have a computer.
Your laws are preventing poor folks who can't even afford a voter ID
from buying a gun.

Shame on MA.



Pre-ban guns are not confiscated and you can still own them, buy them or
sell them as long as they made before 1998 and have always been owned by
someone living within the state.

Banned guns made after 1998 cannot be legally purchased or acquired by
any means.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/1/2014 1:02 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 11:54:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2014 06:38:07 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/1/2014 1:18 AM, wrote:


Felons are unlikely to sign any kind of transfer form, that is the
express train to the slammer, so I am not sure that is even relevant.


Greg, you are therefore making the case *for* gun registration and the
tracking of sales/transfers.

Only if you believe the only people who sell guns would be willing to
make the buyer fill out the form.
BAO contended a while ago that most of the crime guns were stolen. It
is clear that they would never go through legal channels again. They
still move around.
If you are just talking about nuts and people shooting the ones they
love, registration and background checks mean nothing.
Until they snap, they will be fine upstanding citizens who would pass
any background check and after they go on their shooting spree, there
is no problem figuring out who did it or what gun they used.



Not to keep kicking a dead horse but the first part of your comment is
exactly what gun registration is intended for.

I sold a handgun up here in a private sale. When I bought the gun it
was registered with the state identifying me as the owner.

When I sold it, it was up to me to visually confirm that the buyer held
a current and valid MA gun license and it was up to him to confirm I was
the lawful owner. I checked his license, he checked mine, along with
the dealer provided documentation of when I bought the gun.

I then completed a form on-line that included my info and license
number, his info and license number, the gun model and serial number.

Once submitted, the gun was no longer registered to me. It is now
registered to him as the owner as of the date of transfer.

No FFL or fees required.


That is not relevant for the 48 states that do not register firearms.



But it could be. :-)