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On 11/4/2014 6:01 PM, John H wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 4:12:56 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 3:52 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 11/4/14 2:41 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:




Not all conservatives. It seems to only be the hard right.

Seemed as though there were a lot of Democrats and almost *all* of the Republican senators who voted against stricter gun controls here recently. To say only the 'hard right' is far from accurate.



John, you snipped Harry's paragraph to which my response was directed:

"Conservatives have used the same excuses to fight the end of slavery,
the end of child labor, to fight against giving women the vote, to fight
against the passage of the civil rights act."

Had to share this story
 

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:12:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

If gun ownership is important to people, they should be applying their
thought process towards constructive ways to reduce gun crimes

===

First, you've got to solve the drug problem.

Next, you've got to tackle the inner city violence problem.

Last but not necessarily least, you've got to solve the violence in
media problem.

You're trying to waltz around the symptoms while ignoring the root
causes. Yes, I know that it would be easier to repeal the 2A than
solve the 3 above, but at least you'd be working in the right
direction.

With regard to gun accidents, I really don't see that as a major
issue.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/4/2014 6:27 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:12:54 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

If gun ownership is important to people, they should be applying their
thought process towards constructive ways to reduce gun crimes

===

First, you've got to solve the drug problem.

Next, you've got to tackle the inner city violence problem.

Last but not necessarily least, you've got to solve the violence in
media problem.

You're trying to waltz around the symptoms while ignoring the root
causes. Yes, I know that it would be easier to repeal the 2A than
solve the 3 above, but at least you'd be working in the right
direction.

With regard to gun accidents, I really don't see that as a major
issue.



I agree with those. I also agree they are probably more difficult to
solve than just banning guns altogether which will *not* solve the drug,
inner city violence or media problems.

I have concerns that if nothing is done the easier route will become the
preferred route by our government, especially if we continue to see
these wackos conducting mass killings. I don't think the 2A will ever
be repealed entirely but it may be modified or re-interpreted by a more
liberal Supreme Court some day in the future.

That's why, as a gun owner, having some willingness to tighten up on
some of the gun laws and work on eliminating the illegal gun trade and
loopholes may demonstrate a cooperative spirit that takes some of the
wind out of the sails of those who advocate much more severe
restrictions or outright bans.

I don't advocate the banning of guns, despite what some may have concluded.

Had to share this story
 

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:49:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 5:01 PM, BAR wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 11/4/2014 2:05 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 10:26:22 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 11/4/2014 9:58 AM, KC wrote:
On 11/4/2014 9:47 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:58:45 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

You don't give kids enough credit. They are useless feel good devices
similar to useless feel good laws.

Just go in my garage and get an angle grinder or dremel or the cutting
torch.

I opened the trigger lock I have with a paper clip and didn't damage
it at all. Mom and Dad would have no idea I have free access to the
gun


Like to see that vid...


Me too. Kids using angle grinders, cutting torches and dremel tools.

There's another solution. Don't have guns around when you have kids in
the household.

I never felt a desire or need for having guns in the house while we were
raising our three kids. I didn't hunt and guns really didn't hold that
much interest to me.

It wasn't until about four years ago that I decided to get a permit.
Part of the reasoning was because of the great guitar shop experiment
that involved carrying a relatively large amount of cash and the
recommendation of a lawyer. The other was the recognition that I was
getting older, we had already experienced a home invasion and I wanted a
last resort means of defending my wife and I other than a baseball bat.

My parents gave me a .22 rifle when I was 12 years old. I still have it
and will have it until the day I die. It has never killed a living
breathing animal or human. It has destroyed countless targets. I
received the firearm about 41 years ago and it has been in my possession
every where I have lived since I received it. My kids didn't know about
it until they were about 14 or 15.




I was about the same age when I got mine. There were other guns in the
house, my dad's, my grandfathers, several shotguns and rifles. I had
three younger brothers at the time, and we had no special way we
secured the weapons. They were kept in a closet...no lock or keys.
Somehow we all lived, and no one had an accident.



Uh-Huh. Did you have violent video games and gory movies back then that
glorified killing and maiming with blood spurting out of gunshot wounds
and guts plastering the walls?

Having lived in Hawaii during the late 60's and watching them film Tora
Tora Tora, my dad's ship, yes his ship, was used in the movie. We lived
in the shadows of the Arizona memorial. All we did was play war, we
fought the Japs all of the time. Since fire-crackers were common and you
could buy them in the drug store just about all year round we used to
throw fire crackers at each other all of the time, mostly inside of a
mud ball, not a dripping wet mud ball, just wet enough to stay together
while it could be thrown.

Or did you watch Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone like I did?

This is a different age and a different society John. It's not the
1940's and 1950's.

When you look at it with an objective eye the only thing that has
changed is that everything occurs faster.

This thread has amazed me about one thing. It's incredible how many
reasons and excuses people can come up with *not* to try anything to
reduce gun related crimes or accidents. I guess most people here think
everything is just hunky-dory fine the way things are. Sad.




Nice slam of those who don't agree with you. Have any of us called you
an out and out gun grabber yet?

The 2A is not about reducing gun related crimes and accidents, it is
about protecting yourself from persons who would do you harm and who
would want to disarm you.


If you think my comment was a "slam", so be it. It's truthful.

With the recent exception of John H who suggested enforcing current laws
(although it's questionable that they work to begin with) the only
arguments posted so far are violations of 2A rights and slippery slopes
leading to gun bans. Nobody has acknowledged the problem of gun crimes
or accidents and nobody has any brighter ideas.

Do you?


I suppose you missed putting undercover cops in the gun shows where
all the illegal transactions occur.

You say, 'Nobody has acknowledged the problem...' That's just
bull****. No one has said there isn't a problem. Many have said that
your 'solution', more paperwork and a bigger government, will do
little or nothing.

Are the current laws being enforced? If the police unions operate like
the teacher unions, then perhaps we need to figure out a way to get
rid of the deadwood so the current laws can be better enforced.

Had to share this story
 

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:10:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 6:01 PM, John H wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 4:12:56 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 3:52 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 11/4/14 2:41 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:




Not all conservatives. It seems to only be the hard right.

Seemed as though there were a lot of Democrats and almost *all* of the Republican senators who voted against stricter gun controls here recently. To say only the 'hard right' is far from accurate.



John, you snipped Harry's paragraph to which my response was directed:

"Conservatives have used the same excuses to fight the end of slavery,
the end of child labor, to fight against giving women the vote, to fight
against the passage of the civil rights act."


So your comment had nothing to do with the 'hard right' excuses not
having stricter gun controls? That makes little sense given the
subject of the discussion.

I don't recall anyone mentioning 2A with regard to any of those
'excuses'.

If you've decided to use the lame, bull**** quotes of Krause, then do
it on your own.

Had to share this story
 

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:09:33 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 11/4/2014 2:05 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 10:26:22 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 11/4/2014 9:58 AM, KC wrote:
On 11/4/2014 9:47 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:58:45 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

You don't give kids enough credit. They are useless feel good devices
similar to useless feel good laws.

Just go in my garage and get an angle grinder or dremel or the cutting
torch.

I opened the trigger lock I have with a paper clip and didn't damage
it at all. Mom and Dad would have no idea I have free access to the
gun


Like to see that vid...


Me too. Kids using angle grinders, cutting torches and dremel tools.

There's another solution. Don't have guns around when you have kids in
the household.

I never felt a desire or need for having guns in the house while we were
raising our three kids. I didn't hunt and guns really didn't hold that
much interest to me.

It wasn't until about four years ago that I decided to get a permit.
Part of the reasoning was because of the great guitar shop experiment
that involved carrying a relatively large amount of cash and the
recommendation of a lawyer. The other was the recognition that I was
getting older, we had already experienced a home invasion and I wanted a
last resort means of defending my wife and I other than a baseball bat.

My parents gave me a .22 rifle when I was 12 years old. I still have it
and will have it until the day I die. It has never killed a living
breathing animal or human. It has destroyed countless targets. I
received the firearm about 41 years ago and it has been in my possession
every where I have lived since I received it. My kids didn't know about
it until they were about 14 or 15.




I was about the same age when I got mine. There were other guns in the
house, my dad's, my grandfathers, several shotguns and rifles. I had
three younger brothers at the time, and we had no special way we
secured the weapons. They were kept in a closet...no lock or keys.
Somehow we all lived, and no one had an accident.



Uh-Huh. Did you have violent video games and gory movies back then that
glorified killing and maiming with blood spurting out of gunshot wounds
and guts plastering the walls?

Or did you watch Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone like I did?

This is a different age and a different society John. It's not the 1940's and 1950's.

This thread has amazed me about one thing. It's incredible how many
reasons and excuses people can come up with *not* to try anything to
reduce gun related crimes or accidents. I guess most people here think
everything is just hunky-dory fine the way things are. Sad.

I think that most of us would support gun laws if they had a chance to
reduce the violence. But, with as you pointed out the violent movies and
games, and the culture of violence in certain areas, lots related to the
Drug War, we do not see most gun laws being proposed not be other than feel
good ****. No real worth. How many of those teenagers killing other
teenagers and young adults in Chicago, Oakland, Detroit, Bakersfield are
going to be affected by any of these new gun laws? They do not seem to
care about the thousands of gun laws we now have.

And law enforcement seems to have about the same concern.

Had to share this story
 

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:46:42 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

That's why, as a gun owner, having some willingness to tighten up on
some of the gun laws and work on eliminating the illegal gun trade and
loopholes may demonstrate a cooperative spirit that takes some of the
wind out of the sails of those who advocate much more severe
restrictions or outright bans.

===

With all due respect I see that as appeasement of the mass hysteria
without doing a thing to address the real issues.

Had to share this story
 

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 18:53:53 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

I suppose you missed putting undercover cops in the gun shows where
all the illegal transactions occur.

===

I have reason to think that it is already happening. I was talking
to a guy running a booth at our local gun show a few years ago. He
was selling a few highly specialized High Standard target pistols, not
exactly your typical gun dealer, and not exactly your typical choice
of a crime weapon. He told me that BATF (or whatever they are called
now) had come to him and said that he needed to be an FFL.

My conclusion is that someone *is* keeping an eye on this sort of
thing.

Had to share this story
 

On 11/4/2014 2:41 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 11/4/2014 2:05 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 10:26:22 -0500, BAR wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 11/4/2014 9:58 AM, KC wrote:
On 11/4/2014 9:47 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 01:58:45 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

You don't give kids enough credit. They are useless feel good
devices
similar to useless feel good laws.

Just go in my garage and get an angle grinder or dremel or the
cutting
torch.

I opened the trigger lock I have with a paper clip and didn't damage
it at all. Mom and Dad would have no idea I have free access to the
gun


Like to see that vid...


Me too. Kids using angle grinders, cutting torches and dremel tools.

There's another solution. Don't have guns around when you have kids in
the household.

I never felt a desire or need for having guns in the house while we
were
raising our three kids. I didn't hunt and guns really didn't hold that
much interest to me.

It wasn't until about four years ago that I decided to get a permit.
Part of the reasoning was because of the great guitar shop experiment
that involved carrying a relatively large amount of cash and the
recommendation of a lawyer. The other was the recognition that I was
getting older, we had already experienced a home invasion and I
wanted a
last resort means of defending my wife and I other than a baseball
bat.

My parents gave me a .22 rifle when I was 12 years old. I still have it
and will have it until the day I die. It has never killed a living
breathing animal or human. It has destroyed countless targets. I
received the firearm about 41 years ago and it has been in my possession
every where I have lived since I received it. My kids didn't know about
it until they were about 14 or 15.




I was about the same age when I got mine. There were other guns in the
house, my dad's, my grandfathers, several shotguns and rifles. I had
three younger brothers at the time, and we had no special way we
secured the weapons. They were kept in a closet...no lock or keys.
Somehow we all lived, and no one had an accident.



Uh-Huh. Did you have violent video games and gory movies back then that
glorified killing and maiming with blood spurting out of gunshot wounds
and guts plastering the walls?

Or did you watch Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone like I did?

This is a different age and a different society John. It's not the
1940's and 1950's.

This thread has amazed me about one thing. It's incredible how many
reasons and excuses people can come up with *not* to try anything to
reduce gun related crimes or accidents. I guess most people here think
everything is just hunky-dory fine the way things are. Sad.




Even more than the violence in these video games I am concerened that
most 10 year olds have already been trained by these things with nearly
as much tactical information as most cops... They know how cops and
military move, clear buildings, operate in general, what weapons they
have, etc.... I just don't like 10 year olds that know how to kill so
many people and how long it will take, what it will look like, etc....