"Black-n-Gold" wrote in message
...
Saw a boat for sale last night - a 1977 Bayliner - that the owner had just
installed laminate flooring on. Looks very cool, however I don't know how
practical it is.



It's a Bayliner! It will never leave the driveway! ;-)
Greg

Ahhh yes, yet another Mensa candidate dribbles out his words of wit and
wisdom using his intellectual superpowers in spotting the word "Bayliner".

Seriously, I second what someone else said about using that laminate to
cover up a bigger problem. I also question the durability of this
material's application in a marine environment. It might be advisable to
look elsewhere.

Another word of advice... Don't be a narrow minded twit like Alfalfa,
Spank Me, and the rest of the OGHMBHC (Our Gang He Man Bayliner Haters
Club). Use an open mind and common sense when looking at a boat, instead
of letting a brand name determine what used boat to buy. Don't overlook
a properly cared for Bayliner just because its a Bayliner. Conversely,
don't expect a Sea Ray or Wellcraft to be a better value on name alone.
Let the boat's condition speak for itself. If two boats of different
brand names are similar in condition, specifications, and price, then IMHO
its a judgement call, as I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

I have no doubt that you will find some Bayliners that are indeed a POS,
but that can easily be said for any boat that was neglected by its
previous owner.

Good Luck in your search!

Bob Dimond




In article , "Greg O"
wrote:

"Black-n-Gold" wrote in message
...
Saw a boat for sale last night - a 1977 Bayliner - that the owner had just
installed laminate flooring on. Looks very cool, however I don't know how
practical it is.



It's a Bayliner! It will never leave the driveway! ;-)
Greg

"Bob D." wrote in message
...

I have no doubt that you will find some Bayliners that are indeed a POS,
but that can easily be said for any boat that was neglected by its
previous owner.

But if it starts out as a Bayliner, improvements are equal to turd
polishing.

Have a hard look at the materials and contruction of Bayliner boats and
you'll notice they're just like churned out Chevys. That may be fine for
the road, not my choice for water.

In article , "jps" wrote:

"Bob D." wrote in message
...

I have no doubt that you will find some Bayliners that are indeed a POS,
but that can easily be said for any boat that was neglected by its
previous owner.

But if it starts out as a Bayliner, improvements are equal to turd
polishing.


Hmmmm... My fearless foe's vast wit puzzles me. I better run that witty
reparte through my patented OGHMBHC (Our Gang He Man Bayliner Haters Club)
Translator:

"Bayliner Baaaad, My boat Gooood"

Ahhh yes, now I understand.

Have a hard look at the materials and contruction of Bayliner boats and
you'll notice they're just like churned out Chevys. That may be fine for
the road, not my choice for water.

Taking a "hard look" at a finished boat does not necessarily mean squat to
me. I for one do not pretend to be a materials engineer, structural
engineer, marine engineer, or even a certified marine mechanic. I cannot
infer that something on the whole is a POS just because something doesn't
look right in the fit and finish category.

Or perhaps I misunderstood you. Was your "hard look" taken at the
Brunswick Corp plant where Bayliners are produced? If so, I'm curious
did you visit a competitors plant for comparison? At the very least, can
you be more specific?

Well I can see its time for OGHMBHC translator again:

"Bayliner Baaaad, My boat Gooood"

Ahhh yes, now I understand.

The fact that you view Bayliners as the Chevrolet of boats is about the
only remark to your argument that has any bite. Bayliner, and its parent
corp Brunswick, are probably the largest manufacturer of powerboats in the
world. This might equate to Chevy and its parent corp GM in the
Automotive industry. In addition, I respect your opinion on not wanting
to chose the Chevy of boats, just as many people would choose a Cadillac
over a Chevrolet. But, using your chevy analogy, inferring that a Chevy
Cavalier is a POS but a Cadillac Cimmaron is not would mark the zenith of
stupidity.

I'm not trying to start an argument, in fact, I think I should concede
that of the boats I've looked at sometimes, the Bayliners fit and finish
is not always measure up to a comparable boat. But it seems to me that
the price difference between these comparable boats often more than makes
up for what the Bayliner lacks in fit and finish or extras. It might be
just me but for a $8000 - $10000 difference in the price of a 28 foot boat
of comparable specifications, I would think that one could easily take
care of the fit and finish or other small problems, and have money to
spare, so how does that qualify the Bayliner brand to be a POS?

So for Harry, NYOB, Greg O, and all the people in this group who insist on
dismissing Bayliner as anyone choice of boat I humbly ask:

How did Bayliner specifically deserve this reputation, was it earned from
personal experience?

Since its only Bayliner that seems to be singled out, does that mean all
other boat manufactures are okay? What about Sea Rays?

Oh and when answering these questions, how about giving me some empirical
data instead of a narrow-minded smart ass remark, okay?

Unfortunately I don't have some people's super human power of arrogance.
So I cannot say that bayliner is better or worse than any other boat,
because quite frankly, I DON'T KNOW. All I have are my meager experiences
aboard several Bayliners. One Bayliner (Ciera) belongs to a friend who
bought the boat new in 1986 and we traveled on average 50 miles each
weeked for a period of five years and then 30 miles each weekend for the
last 12 years. Those trips were made on Lake Erie in all types of
weather from dead calm to 8-10 foot seas (that only happened once, thank
god). My first powerboat was a 16 ft Bayliner Cuddy. I probably put
more miles on that boat in one Ohio season than most people put on a boat
in Florida all year. We survived 6-8 foot seas in that boat. It wasn't
plesant, but the boat made it and I never felt endangered. My last
bayliner rode through rough seas better than the larger boat I use today.
All in all I've had pretty good experiences with bayliner boats. Were my
experience perfect with Bayliners? Hell No. Would I ever overlook them
because of my experiences? Hell no.

In contrast, I've known people who bought the "better" boats and still had
problems. Case in point I had a girlfirend who bought a brand new 2000
Four Winns 27 footer. Besides having a layout that was unsuitable for
cruising (a matter of taste). There was no way to keep the cushions on
the convertable Vee berth. The stereo radios would not work, when the
shorepower was plugged in, due to interferrance. Both the dealer and
manufacturer told them there was nothing they could do. When I first
looked at her boat I pointed out the the flush mount using a gasket
without a lip was a point of failure. Sure enough, within its first
season that gasket faileed and water was leaking in the cabin.
Friends of my father have a 45 foot Californian, thay bought for
$400,000. The boat has a beautiful wet bar on the back deck, complete
with a refidgerator. They don't use the fridge, why? Because the refer
door faces AFT!!!

Obviously I've droned on long enough so I better use the patented BDITLW
(Bob Dimond is too Long Winded) Translator:

"All boats baaaaaad, all boats gooood"

Whether it's a multimillion dollar Parker 25 Wunderbot, a 16 foot Bayliner
or anything in between. My experiece forms my opinion that accross the
board the Marine industry fails to deliver the quality and value that a
consumer should expect for their money. That means in some way they're
all pieces of ****. To actually single one brand out is arrogance. To
single it out without personal experience or statistics is IMHO pure
stupidity.

Bob Dimond

"Bob D." wrote in message
...
In article , "jps"
wrote:

You should consider hooking up with Karen. You two could have incredibly
long-winded discussions on the merits of boat building.

My *opinion* is based on having observed Bayliner workmanship and materials
on many of their boats. Like any manufacturer of a production vessel,
decisions are made based on meeting the expectations of the customers. In
order to make a competitively priced product, the product must be
manufactured efficiently and sometimes with inferior materials. For the
manufacturer, that's the beauty of a production boat, economies of scale
have an effect on the company's bottom line and they can capture a
significant market share because of the marketability (price) of the vessel.
They have their market niche and many people enjoy their products. That's
why they changed the name of their larger vessels. They do not have a good
reputation in the higher dollar market because people expect fit and finish
and good materials.

The Bayliner Chevy is not the kind of craftsmanship I admire nor the kind of
product I'm eager to own. And, I'm not playing the "my boat's better than
yours" game because there are plenty of boats built better than the one I
own.

So there!

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.

And you'll discover that the boat "designed for ocean use" is probably superior
to *any* boat designed primarily for inland waters or freshwater lakes.

Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.




--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

Bob D. wrote:
Oh? Have you? I thought as much.


In article , Harry Krause
wrote:

Bob D. wrote:

I have yet to see anyone offer any significant
empirical data, even significant anectdotal evidence, that any boat of a
given brand name is clearly superior or inferior to another brand name,
when factoring in things like initial cost, and care.

Oh? Try going 30 miles offshore in a Bayliner and a boat of similar
sized designed for ocean use.



I've been "offshore" in a few Bayliner Trophies. Never again. I also
went a mile offshore in the Atlantic out a fairly rough inlet in a
Bayliner 55' motor yacht. What a piece of crap that was...it couldn't
keep up with boats 20' shorter.

In which ocean do you boat, Bob?



--
* * *
email sent to will *never* get to me.

This is long, but sumitted for two reasons:

1) I do like telling the story, and hope you find it entertaining

2) To dispute Harry's "facts" that all Bayliners are crappy an cannot
possibly take weather.

My first powerboat was a 16 foot bayliner Capri Cuddy with an 85HP Force
Outboard. In the one season I owned her, I put close to 250 miles on it,
in Lake Erie, in everything from dead calm to 6-8 foot waves.

The best example of the later, occurred on Labor Day of 1999, the day
before (sunday) on our way back from a trip to Windsor, and Wyandote, we
stopped off at South Bass Island for a little extra party time. The
Dimond brothers proceeded to terrorize the small village of Put-in-Bay
(PIB) in our usual was by drinking lots, laughing loud, and making
friends.

That night I was asleep outside the cabin on the jump seat because of the
unbearable humidity without any breeze. At around 4am I awoke to use the
head and found the most comfortable gentle breeze, with a humidity that
dropped instantly. It was then I suspected a nor'easter was going to
hit. I crawled in the cabin for a few more hours sleep and awoke to a
very stiff blow by 9:00am.

At 9:00am I awoke to stumble to the bathroom (again). At that time I
found our PIB Dockmaster, Keith, posting the NWS 8:00am forecast. Not
Good. I then tuned to VHF to get the latest forecast, which posted a
strong, persistent NNE wind with the current wave heights from the SBI
bouy at 5 to 7 feet, with wave heights ranging from 8 to 10 feet in the
afternoon.

Knowing it would only get worse, not wanting to miss to my Girlfriends
BBQ, and needing to get to work on Tuesday, I frantically woke by
Brother, Rich. I told him to get his ass in gear, we have to leave before
the heavy stuff hits. Richard, having certain southern qualities and
probably hung over, meandered to the bathroom at a pace much slower than I
had hoped.

By 10am we were donned with Live vests and leaving the dock in a light
rain. Because of my lack of experience, I opted to have the top down
while leaving the dock, due to the added windage. The people who saw us
off looked at my bother with sympathy when I refused their courteous offer
to stay. We shoved off from Miller's and headed east towards the PIB
municipal docks.

To paraphrase George Costanza: The Bay was angry my friend, like an old
man trying to send back soup in a deli. As we were heading out of the
bay, we were hitting 3-4 foot waves IN THE BAY. In order to stay dry my
brother tried to put the top up, but then I couldnt see. I unzipped the
center and peered out through the hole. Unfortunately the wind was so
strong that the hole allowed the wind to pull the top off of the remaining
snaps when we started to power up. So here I am trying to drive the boat
in ever increasing wind, waves, and rain, screaming at my brother to move
his ass and get the F*cking top stowed away.

A few moments after he gets the top stowed he comes back next to me. I
turned to him and in that moment BAM! My face hit the windshield frame.
(Note to Harry, the Windshield did not break) I could taste the blood
comming out of my mouth. I then turned to my brother, smiled, and in my
best Carl from Caddyshak impersonation said "I think we should press on...
I don't think the heavy stuff comming for quite some time". With that
we laughed like hyena and pressed on.

We hit the second worst port of our journey about 3/4 of a mile past the
green SBI marker. It was there the boat stalled. Out of gas. I asked
my brother to switch the tanks. Not smart. Once again I watched my
brother in his laid back fashion fumbling to switch the tank, a job that I
learned to do in about three seconds. I turned my attention toward the
lake, where I watched helplessly as an eight foot wall of water was
approaching our stern. If this wave breaks the boat will probably sink
is all I could think about. I then yelled at my brother to hurry the
F*CK up! The wave passed beneath us (it didn't break) and our engine
strarted up on its fresh tank. We then headed toward the South south
west where the ride would be in the lee side of South Bass while taking
the weather further abeam. All the while reciting the mantra of Carl from
Caddyshak.

As we cruised we saw only three boats. One appeared to be a 25 foot Lyman
or Skiff-Craft as it was clearly a lapstrake inboard. The other two were
sedans in the 30 to 35 foot range. We started behind them headed a
little more SSW to diminish the weather, then back tracked SE to a point
SW of the SW kelly shore, where we were still taking the waves further
abeam and and passed them all. More than ever my brother and I were all
smiles and laughter, though I can't honesty say why. I probably had a
concussion, I don't know what his excuse was. As we headed further SE,
towards the inlet I thought clearly the worst was over as kellys should
help harbor us into Sandusky Bay. Clearly my inexperience would prove me
wrong.

As we made the Sandusky Bay inlet the water was being funneled between
Kelly's Island, Marblehead point and the Ceder Point breakwall. What a
mess. The wave action was all over, with the majority of action heading
form out of due north to give us following seas. There was a channel
which cut from the western shore of the Sandusky inlet to the Nothern
shore of Sandusky Bay's protected waters. I had only a vague notion of
where it was, but on this day, I was determined to find it.

As we headed south west to hug the shore we managed to find the red marker
marking the channel. We darted for it and found ourself in the flat
protected water of the channel. The channel lead us to the flat protected
water of Sandusky bays North shore, about two miles due north of my home
port the Dock of the Bay Marina. We arrived at the dock at about
11:15am, soaked to the bone, desperately needing the restroom, but in
great spirits.

As we exited the restroom to head back to the boat, a woman in her mid
fifties approached me. "Oh my god! You didn't take your boat back last
night did you?" She said with surprise. Looking like Dan Quayle after
being asked to spell Potato I said "huh? Uh.. No.?" She noted the lack
or recognition and said: "Don't you remember? You guys saw my Dock of the
Bay shirt and were hanging around with my husband and I last night at
Tippers? We were taking the (Island) Rocket back and you guys said you
were staying on your boat. You guys were so drunk, I just assumed you
weren't taking your boat back last night!" "We didn't." I repeated.
"Oh.. did you leave your boat up there, and ferry back?" I replied: "No,
we came back today." "Well you guys are brave, considering the weather
out there. Our friends had to leave their 35 footer at the bay, and took
the rocket back. So where's your boat?" I pointed to the southeast slip
of the outside pier, nearest the parking lot. "Right there." She
gasped: "Don't tell me you came back in that boat!", pointing the new 28
foot Formula that was in line of sight. "No." I lead her a little
further towards the pier where the Tiny 16 foot cuddy started to peer out
from behind the Formula "That one." She gasped and "Oh my God! Are you
crazy?" Rich and I reassured here that while it wasn't a leisurely
cruise, it was not that bad. I really don't think we had her convinced
though.

I called Michelle and told here we were going to make her BBQ. When we
arrived whe told her and her family the story of our weekend in Windsor
and the, coup de gras, our trip back from Put-in-Bay. A week later
Michelle informed me that friends of her family, beached their 54 foot
Carver in the bay by Perry's Monument due to the wind conditions that
day. Said Carver was complete with twin engines (of course) and a bow
thruster.

We told my dad about our story. He looked at me laughed and said: "You're
an idiot." Looked at my brother, smiled, and said: "You're an idiot for
going with him!" I said: "We had a GPS two VHF radios, a cell phone,
life jackets on, and were in familiar waters in bad weather Besides,
before Richard was born, we had been out in the similar conditions on a
smaller boat!". No further comment was made, except "Well... okay. Just
be careful."


Bob Dimond