I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)

I've recently been fooling around with stand-up paddling. Man, it's fun!
And it seems very fast and all-body dynamic. I vaguely recall that
highkneeling is tested as faster than paddling even over a long
distance, so I'm wondering if maybe standing is faster yet. ?? It seems
like one can also pole nicely with a stand-up paddle when it is shallow
then paddle well when it's deep. But poles supposedly paddle well when
deep as well and really get traction in the shallows.

Anyone know how all this plays out? Thanks.

I was out standing in my J200 the other day. That's still a somewhat
viable fla****er race hull. Not too bad. Tippier than my Advantage, for
sure, but quite a bit faster shape, too.

I heard from a local guy who has a 6 foot paddle for me to test in
standing. --Big George Stockman (of yore). I believe he has a national
OC title or two under his belt. And I think he's the only guy to C1 the
AuSable Marathon for grins.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
for modern folkways and culture revival...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
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Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Jeff Potter typed:

I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Just go farther, dude! : ) Getting a boat onto a plane at a hull-optimized
speed in a hull optimized for speed is way cool and feels good.

I can't imagine labeling those WW 'slippers' as boats. Or not going anywhere,
as per today's WW mode of simulating liftserved skiing on water. All that
waiting your turn for waves...yuck!

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes

But are these realworld advantages? I don't recall that kayaks beat canoes in
distance events. Maybe sometimes. Doesn't one typically get more lactic
buildup when kayaking for speed so that the events are shorter? I vaguely
recall that highkneel beats all even in 2 hour events. Hmmm, maybe Landick
used a kayak paddle in his huge hull at the Texas Water Safari---or maybe he
alternated paddle-types. Oh well maybe someone has some real science.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
for modern folkways and culture revival...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller
folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
om...
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

I don't have the 'science' of it, and a limited set of inputs, but the only
time I saw a racer up againsn't a kayak, the race canoe beat him what seemed
handily.
Then, like you say, I'm never on the river to paddle just to get off. this
was a race canoe, kneel stokes, and the two paddlers did not then switch
boats or anything. it seemed to be just a grudge match between these two.
Just looking at it though, I'd feel that that kneeling stroke gets more
power into it than a kayak double.
and the guy was like a windmill too. he seemed to match the kayak each
stroke.

just an anecdotal 2 cents...




-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Jeff Potter typed:

I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)

Why I prefer 'hut-hut-hut'...
10. If it's over mild Class 2, I don't want to be there anyway...
9. I don't get warm for at least an hour
8. My paddle weighs a lot less than yours (8-9oz)
7. I like paddling balanced on a razor blade.
6. Riding/drafting is a lot tougher with a double paddle
5. Hut gives your partner something to do
4. I can see farther down the river than you can
3. My back hurts too much sitting down in a yak for that long
2. My boat weighs less than yours does
(and the real reason I like sit & switch)
1. My knees would never put up with a high-kneeler anyway.

Aside from poking fun at each other, I paddle sea kayak, surf ski (a
little) touring and racing canoes. I can't imagine taking a kayak to
most of the places I go in the BWCA, nor would I take a canoe to
Superior. While I *can* J-stroke, I prefer to 'hut' even when touring.
Experienced paddlers/racers lose perhaps 1/4 stroke per hut, so
assuming a 72 stroke/min and hutting every 6 strokes, that's only 3
strokes/ minute lost. Not quite what Barton can do in a K-1 over a
thousand meters, but I'm still going at that clip after 3-4 hours.

As they say, 'different strokes'. I fully appreciate His Kanubic
Heresy's goal of leaving no hole unsurfed, but I'd rather a different
way. (and no waterwings requiredG)

Marsh Jones
New Brighton, MN

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Jeff Potter typed:


I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)

"rick etter" wrote in message
...

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
om...
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

I don't have the 'science' of it, and a limited set of inputs, but the
only
time I saw a racer up againsn't a kayak, the race canoe beat him what
seemed
handily.
Then, like you say, I'm never on the river to paddle just to get off.
this
was a race canoe, kneel stokes, and the two paddlers did not then switch
boats or anything. it seemed to be just a grudge match between these two.
Just looking at it though, I'd feel that that kneeling stroke gets more
power into it than a kayak double.
and the guy was like a windmill too. he seemed to match the kayak each
stroke.


Friend of mine who's into adventure racing tells me that in one race they
lost to competitors who used twin-blade kayak paddles in canoes, I assume
because of the advantages that Kanubi elucidated and enumerated. Any
adventure racers out there who can shed light?

Parham.

I'll be curious to see how you manage to 'pop' a boat going thru the
shallows while poling.

Have you tried standing up in your J200 while getting beam waved by the
kids in their butt-dragging wakeboard boat? I go out and do 'fartlek'
on one of the local lakes here just to play in the ski boat waves, and
have played submarine just from the curl coming up over the wing on my
Jboat. The local hotshots have a wake board specialty boat with a tuna
tower and a ballast tank to make the stern really dig in. It does
generate a significant wave - 2-3 feet before it hits the shallow.

Poling and standup paddling have their place in the swamps and even
going upstream in rapids, but I'd caution trying to make them cure-alls
- rather another tool in the arsenal.

Marsh

Jeff Potter wrote:
Marsh Jones wrote in message news:Io76b.368081$o%2.165655@sccrnsc02...

Why I prefer 'hut-hut-hut'...


But what about poling or standing?

So far to me poling/standing seems as fast as hutting and I can do it
very easily in a race boat and it's not like I have great balance or
anything. It feels like XC skiing, snowboarding or maybe windsurfing
to me.

But then I was asking for science/clear-data on speed variations
anyway...


10. If it's over mild Class 2, I don't want to be there anyway...


I hear that polers do rapids all the time but without entrapment
issues, eh?

[ ]

4. I can see farther down the river than you can


Polers/standers see much much farther than anyone else. It's like
waterwalking. You see down in the water far far better, too. You see
into the woods and trees and bank areas lots lots better, too. It
opens up a whole new world or three.


3. My back hurts too much sitting down in a yak for that long

[ ]

1. My knees would never put up with a high-kneeler anyway.


Poling/standing seems best of all on the bod. And a more varied
workout.

And it makes obstacle clearing a breeze, fun even. I call it
boatocross. Many many times easier than canoe which is many (singular)
times easier than a yak. We have lots of low-water around here these
days. The whole Great Lakes does, riverwise. Poling is simply the best
in the shallows from what I can tell, and I'm a longtime hutter. I
seem to stand-paddle fine in the shallows, too---but not enough data
yet. (Long paddle also seems to make a good pole. I'm interested in
testing 6-7' paddles.)

--JP

"Jeff Potter" wrote in message
m...
Marsh Jones wrote in message
news:Io76b.368081$o%2.165655@sccrnsc02...
Why I prefer 'hut-hut-hut'...

But what about poling or standing?

So far to me poling/standing seems as fast as hutting and I can do it
very easily in a race boat and it's not like I have great balance or
anything. It feels like XC skiing, snowboarding or maybe windsurfing
to me.

But then I was asking for science/clear-data on speed variations
anyway...

10. If it's over mild Class 2, I don't want to be there anyway...

I hear that polers do rapids all the time but without entrapment
issues, eh?

[ ]
4. I can see farther down the river than you can

Polers/standers see much much farther than anyone else. It's like
waterwalking. You see down in the water far far better, too. You see
into the woods and trees and bank areas lots lots better, too. It
opens up a whole new world or three.

3. My back hurts too much sitting down in a yak for that long
[ ]
1. My knees would never put up with a high-kneeler anyway.

Poling/standing seems best of all on the bod. And a more varied
workout.

And it makes obstacle clearing a breeze, fun even. I call it
boatocross. Many many times easier than canoe which is many (singular)
times easier than a yak. We have lots of low-water around here these
days. The whole Great Lakes does, riverwise. Poling is simply the best
in the shallows from what I can tell, and I'm a longtime hutter. I
seem to stand-paddle fine in the shallows, too---but not enough data
yet. (Long paddle also seems to make a good pole. I'm interested in
testing 6-7' paddles.)


Hey Jeff: glad to see youre still a poling afficinado.

My primary method of canoe movement is poling. I take a 6" beavertail paddle
and a 16" pole whenever I go on trips, and I find that I spend about 80% of
my time poling. This is in shallows, fast water, slow water, rocky rapids,
moving upstream, and moving downstream. The only water I don't pole in as a
matter of habit is deep, flat water, because the pole just doesn't work as
well as a paddle, and the correction stroke (really a long drag of the pole
behind the boat) slows it to almost a stop between strokes...not very
efficient.

However, in any river where you can reach the bottom, there's no replacement
for that satisfying feeling that every single push of the pole results in
forward motion. And its a lot more comfortable walking around my boat than
sitting there on my butt and knees. However, again, the correction strokes
(a little pry against the hull behind you) takes away some of the forward
motion.

Anecdotal evidence: When I was on the Snake River in the NWT, leading 6
other tandem boats on a river with some good current, I was poling in the
lead so I could read the braided channels between the islands. After a few
hours, the clients begged me to paddle instead of pole because they kept
piling up on my stern since I was going so much slower than them. I assume
its because I was snubbing (slowing down) as much as I was drifting, to buy
time, but even in well-known channelized rivers, I find that poling goes
about 2/3 as fast as paddling, except in hurried, thrashing races which only
last for a few minutes until you are out of control.

--riverman

(A man at olympic event sees another man carrying an aluminum pole. He asks
"Are you a pole vaulter?" The other man says "No, I'm a German, but how did
you know my name?")

You're a boater dog, dude! : )

Yeah, walkin around the boat is where it's at. But our territory must be
different and styles too, but stand-up and poling adapts to em all just fine,
eh?

I tend toward the race style and I don't use correction strokes and am on
fla****er. So from my experience so far both standup and poling seem FASTER
than sit-down kayak or single. But my data is mostly subjective so far.

I did one 1-mile fla****er up and down test and my times were about the same.

Oh, it's also far superior for obstacle-clearing. Step out, heave, step back
in. Or for real shallow water: step out, trot along, step back in. So nice!

I can pole or stand up indefinitely it seems, at race pace. As easy as sitting
anyway. Good rhythm, no worries. Good hull speed carrying along (when I stand
in middle, or end up with weighted foot in middle after thrust, anyway---it's
very dynamic).

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
for modern folkways and culture revival...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller
folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

Thanks for helping with this probably obvious stuff.

I recall that 30 mile marathons in Europe are still won with highkneelers, tho.
So the design isn't always stressfully tippy.

Also a friend of mine went overseas and used a highkneel hull in the sit-down
marathon style at the Worlds and other events and 'only' got fourth. I recall
he was real impressed with the kneelers, but maybe he wasn't at his own fitness
peak then.

Again, for a, say, 2 hour race in a given hull, which paddle style would win
based on science? Kayak, highkneel or sit'n'hut. ??

Cutter wrote:

I'm not sure what you are really seeking. A kayak will be faster given
similar hull design. I base this in finish times in 500M and 1000M
Olympic events vs. a canoe. A kayak's cadence is faster, though each
stroke is weaker. More x weaker = faster. Yes a high kneel canoe is faster
than a low kneel, or sit down marathon style. It is very tiring when
distances exceed 10,000 meters. The fastest paddle boat out there? K-4.
The boat most likely to finish a 150 mile race in front... a sit down canoe.
Any energy used to keep a tippy boat upright will depleat energy available
to propell it. This is why a good 500 M boat may not be a good 10,000 M
boat.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
for modern folkways and culture revival...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller
folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!