I have 2 touring kayaks and I'm thinking about trading them for a
canoe. I like the speed of the kayaks but they are a pain to get in
and out of and it's hard to carry anything in them. Bottom line is I
don't use them anymore. My question is what should I look for in a
canoe? I'll be canoeing in rivers and lakes in north alabama. They are
generally fairly small rivers with easy conditions. What material is
best? Also what size and shape? I'm assuming if you get a stable canoe
you will lose some speed, is that correct?

Any info is appreciated!

Chuck.

If you're not running whitewater, kevlar canoes are light but strong.
They're easy to portage and usually found in designs that are optimized for
tripping and lake canoeing, rather than white water. Kevlar will tolerate
rocks, but not as well as Royalex. Royalex canoes are much heavier, but more
forgiving as they repeatedly slide over rocks in rapids.

Stability and speed are not exactly connected. Tripping/lake canoes will
have a sharper/tapered bow that slices the water to help tracking and speed
versus the more rounded bow/stern of boats, usually made of royalex, for
bigger water/whitewater trips. The rounded bow stern make it easier to turn
in whitewater and make for a drier ride through big waves, but that slows
you down on flat water.

Canoes with flatter bottoms tend to have good initial stability (feels
stable when you climb in), but if tipped up on edge, as happens in
whitewater or bigger water, they have poor secondary stability and easily go
over. Canoes with a more rounded profile and tumblehomes (below the gunnels)
feel tippy at first but have tremendous secondary stability - you can tip
them on edge to the gunnels with ease and straighten them back out (with
practice!).

A prospector design (many manufacturers make it) is probably a good
compromise.

Are you paddling solo or tandem?


"CR" wrote in message
om...
I have 2 touring kayaks and I'm thinking about trading them for a
canoe. I like the speed of the kayaks but they are a pain to get in
and out of and it's hard to carry anything in them. Bottom line is I
don't use them anymore. My question is what should I look for in a
canoe? I'll be canoeing in rivers and lakes in north alabama. They are
generally fairly small rivers with easy conditions. What material is
best? Also what size and shape? I'm assuming if you get a stable canoe
you will lose some speed, is that correct?

Any info is appreciated!

Chuck.

I have 2 touring kayaks and I'm thinking about trading them for a
canoe. I like the speed of the kayaks but they are a pain to get in
and out of and it's hard to carry anything in them. Bottom line is I
don't use them anymore. My question is what should I look for in a
canoe? I'll be canoeing in rivers and lakes in north alabama. They are
generally fairly small rivers with easy conditions. What material is
best? Also what size and shape? I'm assuming if you get a stable canoe
you will lose some speed, is that correct?

Any info is appreciated!

Chuck.



Hi, Chuck, I agree with everything Leslie has mentioned. I my case, my problems
are pretty much what yours are, hard to get out of Kayaks. I have found, in
that I solo all the time, that I needed a canoe that would help keep up with
the kayakers on day trips, After much research I opted to buy the Dagger
Sojourn (solo), it tracks very nicely, it is 30" wide, it has 1.5 rocker at the
bow and none at the stern, it is harder to turn, but for the paddling you and I
do, that is not a factor. Also another canoe which I also own for tandem
paddling/tripping is the Old Town Penobscot 16, Roylex covered, this canoe can
also be soloed easily, replace thward with third seat.

Well that's my two cents worth, go out and try these canoes or many others.


CanoeArt

"Keep a Paddle in the Water at All Times"

Hi, Chuck, I forgot to mention that I solo with a double paddle, great way to
paddle in the wind and chopping waters.


CanoeArt

"Keep a Paddle in the Water at All Times"

Why don't you rent a few canoes, and see what you like.
The price sounds good on the discovery, but they are a little heavy.
Paddle it, or one like it. It's probably a real good general purpose
boat.
I consider the discover on the bottom end of quality boats, avoid
Coleman at all costs. You can always get most of your money back out
of the discovery, if you become an "enthusiast" and want to upgrade.
Oldtown also has higher end boats, as do We-No-Nah, Mad River, Dagger,
Bell, etc. For rivers I prefer a boat with a little rocker. You trade
awat some tracking for manuverability. Again, paddeling several
designs is the best way to determine what you like and don't.

Another approach is to join a canoe club. You will run into a vast
selection of boats, and many folks will let you try their boats.
A comment was made about tunblehome, adding to stability. Sorry, no.
TH subtracts from terminal stability, but makes it easier to reach the
water with the paddle. Again a tradeoff.

Dan


On 6 Aug 2003 07:48:37 -0700, (CR) wrote:

"Leslie" wrote in message ...

I just called a rental place that sells used Old Town Discovery 169s
for $475. Is that a good canoe, good price (assuming they are in good
shape)?

Colorado Springs, CO
My advice may be worth what you paid for it.

longer canoes are faster. it has to do with the way water flows around a
hull. but they are also heavier. narrower canoes are faster too but more
tippy. racing canoes are only about 8" wide on the waterline and when the
racers aren't moving they have to brace with their paddles to keep from
falling over. its all about tradeoffs. expect the canoe to weight more
than one of your solo kayaks. will the wife help carry the canoe as well
as help paddle it?

I don't like the kevlar canoes because they put a lot of big foam core
ribs in them close together and it wrecks my knees when I try to find a
spot to kneel comfortably. They have to do that becuase they use a skin so
thin it needs lots of reinforcing. a few ribs spaced a couple feet apart
in non-kevlar canoes aren't a problem for me. I also find sand and grit
painfull on the knees in really smooth bottom boats. You need a pad of
some sort to kneel on, or maybe a piar of knee pads like skate boarders
wear.

You might not enjoy sharing a canoe, or as some people say, "paddle
tandem, sleep solo". If you find the quiet broken by animated disputes you
might want to go back to kayaks but more open ones with cockpits easier to
get in and out of. On kayaks with big cockpits you have can carry stuff in
the cockpit like a knapsack or "dry bags" which I beleive are rubberized
nylon bags kayakers put things in to keep them relatively dry. Sit on top
kayaks would be the easiest to get in and out of but the one's I've tried
don't have a dry place to carry stuff. Canoes don't offer any more
protection from the sun and wind than sit on top kayaks do.

good luck


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On 6-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

longer canoes are faster.

Self taught in canoe performance too? Here's a _free_ lesson and it's not from a
professional:

(from a previous post on r.b.p.t)

This statement about length is not completely true. The longer kayak/canoe will have a
greater wetted surface than the smaller for the same displacement. Hence, it will have
_more_ resistance at low speeds than the smaller one. If you take a person who is
inherently slow and put them in a longer kayak/canoe, they will likely slow even more.

If you take two kayaks/canoes and plot their speed vs resistance curves, you'll see that the
longer one will have its sharp rise in resistance occur at a higher speed than the shorter.
However, the shorter one's resistance at low speeds will be below the longer one's. If
you routinely paddle at a speed below where the two kayaks'/canoes' curves cross, you should
use the shorter. Otherwise, get the longer. (this data is published with kayak reviews
in Sea Kayaker).

Another way to look at it - for every paddling speed and displacement, there is an
optimal length of kayak/canoe. Shorter or longer than this will take more effort at that
speed.

Longer kayaks/canoes have a higher potential speed, but you have to work for it. Only when
you are comparing powerful paddlers who always go fast is the length statement above true.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
Longer kayaks/canoes have a higher potential speed, but you have to work for it. Only when
you are comparing powerful paddlers who always go fast is the length statement above true.

I think I get what you are saying.

Suppose a 20 foot canoe has a max hull speed of 5 knots and a 16
footer has a max hull speed of 3 knots. Suppose that a certain
paddling force will drive the 20 footer at 1 knot. Are you saying that
if you paddle with the same force on the 16 footer you would go faster
than 1 knot?

(CanoeArt) wrote in message
do, that is not a factor. Also another canoe which I also own for tandem
paddling/tripping is the Old Town Penobscot 16, Roylex covered, this canoe can
also be soloed easily, replace thward with third seat.


I'm starting to like the Penobscot 16. I think it might work for me.

On 6-Aug-2003, (CR) wrote:

Suppose a 20 foot canoe has a max hull speed of 5 knots and a 16
footer has a max hull speed of 3 knots. Suppose that a certain
paddling force will drive the 20 footer at 1 knot. Are you saying that
if you paddle with the same force on the 16 footer you would go faster
than 1 knot?

Yes, that is the principle. Alternatively, at one knot, you will require less
force in the 16 foot.

For weaker paddlers, a short boat will allow them to poke around with less
work. The side effect is more manueverability and less weight to carry as
well. A lot of paddlers, kayak or canoe, tend to buy boats that are too
long.

The key, though, is that too short is also slow. Again, for each displacement
and target velocity, there is an optimal length (all other things being equivalent
- e.g. you have to take into account the beam of real boats). The theory doesn't
do much more than provide a guideline, since it is hard to find two different length
boats where all other things are equivalent. Paddling various boats will allow
one to find the right boat - in the sense that it will feel right. There are other
factors beyond speed of course.

The most important thing is to avoid the nonsense that long boats are automagically
faster.

Mike