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#1
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Science of fastest stroke? --Stand, kneel, canoe, kayak?
I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details on it? Here are the options I see: *standing up, single blade *standing up, poling *high-kneeling *sitting, canoe *sitting, kayak (dbl blade) I've recently been fooling around with stand-up paddling. Man, it's fun! And it seems very fast and all-body dynamic. I vaguely recall that highkneeling is tested as faster than paddling even over a long distance, so I'm wondering if maybe standing is faster yet. ?? It seems like one can also pole nicely with a stand-up paddle when it is shallow then paddle well when it's deep. But poles supposedly paddle well when deep as well and really get traction in the shallows. Anyone know how all this plays out? Thanks. I was out standing in my J200 the other day. That's still a somewhat viable fla****er race hull. Not too bad. Tippier than my Advantage, for sure, but quite a bit faster shape, too. I heard from a local guy who has a 6 foot paddle for me to test in standing. --Big George Stockman (of yore). I believe he has a national OC title or two under his belt. And I think he's the only guy to C1 the AuSable Marathon for grins. -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com for modern folkways and culture revival... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! |
#2
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Science of fastest stroke? --Stand, kneel, canoe, kayak?
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much "science": Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time *hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a) yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to every correction stroke. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== Jeff Potter typed: I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details on it? Here are the options I see: *standing up, single blade *standing up, poling *high-kneeling *sitting, canoe *sitting, kayak (dbl blade) |
#3
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Science of fastest stroke? --Stand, kneel, canoe, kayak?
Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much "science": Just go farther, dude! : ) Getting a boat onto a plane at a hull-optimized speed in a hull optimized for speed is way cool and feels good. I can't imagine labeling those WW 'slippers' as boats. Or not going anywhere, as per today's WW mode of simulating liftserved skiing on water. All that waiting your turn for waves...yuck! Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes But are these realworld advantages? I don't recall that kayaks beat canoes in distance events. Maybe sometimes. Doesn't one typically get more lactic buildup when kayaking for speed so that the events are shorter? I vaguely recall that highkneel beats all even in 2 hour events. Hmmm, maybe Landick used a kayak paddle in his huge hull at the Texas Water Safari---or maybe he alternated paddle-types. Oh well maybe someone has some real science. -- Jeff Potter **** *Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com for modern folkways and culture revival... ...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies... ...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up! ...original downloadable music ... and articles galore! plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES! |
#4
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Science of fastest stroke? --Stand, kneel, canoe, kayak?
"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message om... Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much "science": Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time *hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a) yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to every correction stroke. I don't have the 'science' of it, and a limited set of inputs, but the only time I saw a racer up againsn't a kayak, the race canoe beat him what seemed handily. Then, like you say, I'm never on the river to paddle just to get off. this was a race canoe, kneel stokes, and the two paddlers did not then switch boats or anything. it seemed to be just a grudge match between these two. Just looking at it though, I'd feel that that kneeling stroke gets more power into it than a kayak double. and the guy was like a windmill too. he seemed to match the kayak each stroke. just an anecdotal 2 cents... -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== Jeff Potter typed: I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details on it? Here are the options I see: *standing up, single blade *standing up, poling *high-kneeling *sitting, canoe *sitting, kayak (dbl blade) |
#5
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Science of fastest stroke? --Stand, kneel, canoe, kayak?
"rick etter" wrote in message ... "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message om... Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much "science": Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time *hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a) yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to every correction stroke. I don't have the 'science' of it, and a limited set of inputs, but the only time I saw a racer up againsn't a kayak, the race canoe beat him what seemed handily. Then, like you say, I'm never on the river to paddle just to get off. this was a race canoe, kneel stokes, and the two paddlers did not then switch boats or anything. it seemed to be just a grudge match between these two. Just looking at it though, I'd feel that that kneeling stroke gets more power into it than a kayak double. and the guy was like a windmill too. he seemed to match the kayak each stroke. Friend of mine who's into adventure racing tells me that in one race they lost to competitors who used twin-blade kayak paddles in canoes, I assume because of the advantages that Kanubi elucidated and enumerated. Any adventure racers out there who can shed light? Parham. |
#6
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Science of fastest stroke? --Stand, kneel, canoe, kayak?
Why I prefer 'hut-hut-hut'...
10. If it's over mild Class 2, I don't want to be there anyway... 9. I don't get warm for at least an hour 8. My paddle weighs a lot less than yours (8-9oz) 7. I like paddling balanced on a razor blade. 6. Riding/drafting is a lot tougher with a double paddle 5. Hut gives your partner something to do 4. I can see farther down the river than you can 3. My back hurts too much sitting down in a yak for that long 2. My boat weighs less than yours does (and the real reason I like sit & switch) 1. My knees would never put up with a high-kneeler anyway. Aside from poking fun at each other, I paddle sea kayak, surf ski (a little) touring and racing canoes. I can't imagine taking a kayak to most of the places I go in the BWCA, nor would I take a canoe to Superior. While I *can* J-stroke, I prefer to 'hut' even when touring. Experienced paddlers/racers lose perhaps 1/4 stroke per hut, so assuming a 72 stroke/min and hutting every 6 strokes, that's only 3 strokes/ minute lost. Not quite what Barton can do in a K-1 over a thousand meters, but I'm still going at that clip after 3-4 hours. As they say, 'different strokes'. I fully appreciate His Kanubic Heresy's goal of leaving no hole unsurfed, but I'd rather a different way. (and no waterwings requiredG) Marsh Jones New Brighton, MN Oci-One Kanubi wrote: Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much "science": Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time *hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a) yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to every correction stroke. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471 Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll. rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077 OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters. ================================================== ==================== Jeff Potter typed: I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details on it? Here are the options I see: *standing up, single blade *standing up, poling *high-kneeling *sitting, canoe *sitting, kayak (dbl blade) |
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