Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Jeff Potter typed:

I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Just go farther, dude! : ) Getting a boat onto a plane at a hull-optimized
speed in a hull optimized for speed is way cool and feels good.

I can't imagine labeling those WW 'slippers' as boats. Or not going anywhere,
as per today's WW mode of simulating liftserved skiing on water. All that
waiting your turn for waves...yuck!

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes

But are these realworld advantages? I don't recall that kayaks beat canoes in
distance events. Maybe sometimes. Doesn't one typically get more lactic
buildup when kayaking for speed so that the events are shorter? I vaguely
recall that highkneel beats all even in 2 hour events. Hmmm, maybe Landick
used a kayak paddle in his huge hull at the Texas Water Safari---or maybe he
alternated paddle-types. Oh well maybe someone has some real science.

--

Jeff Potter
****
*Out Your Backdoor * http://www.outyourbackdoor.com
for modern folkways and culture revival...
...offering "small world" views on bikes, bows, books, movies...
...new books featuring: XC ski culture, a Gulf Coast thriller
folding bicycles ... with radical novels coming up!
...original downloadable music ... and articles galore!
plus national "Off the Beaten Path" travel forums! HOLY SMOKES!

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
om...
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

I don't have the 'science' of it, and a limited set of inputs, but the only
time I saw a racer up againsn't a kayak, the race canoe beat him what seemed
handily.
Then, like you say, I'm never on the river to paddle just to get off. this
was a race canoe, kneel stokes, and the two paddlers did not then switch
boats or anything. it seemed to be just a grudge match between these two.
Just looking at it though, I'd feel that that kneeling stroke gets more
power into it than a kayak double.
and the guy was like a windmill too. he seemed to match the kayak each
stroke.

just an anecdotal 2 cents...




-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Jeff Potter typed:

I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)

"rick etter" wrote in message
...

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
om...
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

I don't have the 'science' of it, and a limited set of inputs, but the
only
time I saw a racer up againsn't a kayak, the race canoe beat him what
seemed
handily.
Then, like you say, I'm never on the river to paddle just to get off.
this
was a race canoe, kneel stokes, and the two paddlers did not then switch
boats or anything. it seemed to be just a grudge match between these two.
Just looking at it though, I'd feel that that kneeling stroke gets more
power into it than a kayak double.
and the guy was like a windmill too. he seemed to match the kayak each
stroke.


Friend of mine who's into adventure racing tells me that in one race they
lost to competitors who used twin-blade kayak paddles in canoes, I assume
because of the advantages that Kanubi elucidated and enumerated. Any
adventure racers out there who can shed light?

Parham.

Why I prefer 'hut-hut-hut'...
10. If it's over mild Class 2, I don't want to be there anyway...
9. I don't get warm for at least an hour
8. My paddle weighs a lot less than yours (8-9oz)
7. I like paddling balanced on a razor blade.
6. Riding/drafting is a lot tougher with a double paddle
5. Hut gives your partner something to do
4. I can see farther down the river than you can
3. My back hurts too much sitting down in a yak for that long
2. My boat weighs less than yours does
(and the real reason I like sit & switch)
1. My knees would never put up with a high-kneeler anyway.

Aside from poking fun at each other, I paddle sea kayak, surf ski (a
little) touring and racing canoes. I can't imagine taking a kayak to
most of the places I go in the BWCA, nor would I take a canoe to
Superior. While I *can* J-stroke, I prefer to 'hut' even when touring.
Experienced paddlers/racers lose perhaps 1/4 stroke per hut, so
assuming a 72 stroke/min and hutting every 6 strokes, that's only 3
strokes/ minute lost. Not quite what Barton can do in a K-1 over a
thousand meters, but I'm still going at that clip after 3-4 hours.

As they say, 'different strokes'. I fully appreciate His Kanubic
Heresy's goal of leaving no hole unsurfed, but I'd rather a different
way. (and no waterwings requiredG)

Marsh Jones
New Brighton, MN

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:
Heh, heh. I'm not, frankly, very interested in all this (I have never
raced because I have never yet put on a river with the express
intention of getting back off it as soon as I can; I take my time and
make the most I can of the river) but I can tell you *this* much
"science":

Kayaks have two distinct speed advantages over canoes (not to mention
other advantages not directly related to speed). These are (1) nearly
double the natural stroke rate, because each "recovery" stroke is
simultaneously a power stroke on the other side, and (2) alternating
power strokes from side to side means a kayaker (going straight, no
current, etc.) never has to make a correction stroke or waste time
*hut-hutting*. Correction strokes reduce yer speed in two ways, (a)
yer forward stroke rate is reduced due to the time spent correcting
rather than powering, and (b) there is a small braking component to
every correction stroke.

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhople[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Jeff Potter typed:


I'm thinking there's probably been both science done and comparison done
between all the various possible ways to paddle. Anyone have any details
on it?

Here are the options I see:

*standing up, single blade
*standing up, poling
*high-kneeling
*sitting, canoe
*sitting, kayak (dbl blade)