Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

But I have no need or desire to apologize.

Need, my dear friend, yes. Desire? It has been well established you
don't.

In your first post, you displayed [...] that you
weren't really interested in advice

Is that so? Then why would I post a question in the first place? Maybe
you've forgotten my first post. Why don't you re-read it. Why on earth
would I say: "--What other boats do folks recommend?" if I wasn't
really interested in their advice? I'm sorry but it's just too easy to
pick your arguments apart Doug

I *did* offer some good advice,

Yes, you did offer _SOME_ advice. I'll grant you that. For those who
may not have seen the first post, I show Doug's "good" advice below:

On a message dated: 2004-03-12 08:31:43 PST Doug "The Fresh Toilet
King" wrote:

My first advice is to drop the phrase "blue water cruiser."
It makes you sound like you want to be the Tidy Bowl man.


By his own account Doug King is a bit confused and thinks that people
who use the term "blue water" are talking about toilet disinfectants.
As stated earlier he probably thinks that the term "green water"
refers to the competing brand. Who knows what he thinks when he hears
the term getting "pooped".

I'm sorry Doug, but you are just too easy a target. You were rude.
Admit it. In your own words you said: "--If I was rude, it was rather
mild." And I will grant you that as well. It was rather mild and it
was rather entertaining at that. But rude nonetheless.

You got all ****y because I popped
your balloon.

Wrong, again! I'm rather entertained by the whole brouhaha. Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging. It seems like you are the one getting all ****y because
somebody has called your bluff.

Since we are offering each other advice, here's some advice for you:
My advice is for you to stick to sailing in your posts. You are smart,
knowledgeable and experienced. People could benefit from what you have
to say, instead of just dismissing posts signed by "DSK". Try to let
people come to respect your opinion by the quality of your posts and
don't try to get snotty with strangers. The world would be a better
place for it.

Fresh Toilets- Bob Whitaker



DSK wrote in message ...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
There you go, Ladies and Gentlemen, Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" in
his own words.

In your own words, you seem to be obsessed with toilets.


... All he had to say is: "--Yes Bob, you are right. I was
just trying to be funny. I'm sorry I was rude."

But I have no need or desire to apologize. If I was rude, it was rather
mild. Your reaction has been on a scale with BittyBill and Jax... both
of whom are buffoons. Do I care about their opinions? Should I care
about yours?

In your first post, you displayed a number of prejudices regarding
offshore sailing, and that you weren't really interested in advice
unless it was either agreed with your prejudices or was offered ever so
humbley.

I *did* offer some good advice, although without any apology whatever
for disagreeing with your prejudices. You got all ****y because I popped
your balloon. Life is tough sometimes.

DSK

Bob Whitaker wrote:
... Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing? It seems to take a back
seat to kindergarten squabbling.

DSK

Hello Doug,

How are you doing? Nice to hear from you again. I had a fantastic
weekend, how about yourself? I came back to many interesting posts,
and amongst them I found yours:

Doug "The Fresh Toilet King" wrote:

kindergarten squabbling

Kindergarten? This is very amusing even if it's getting really
tiresome to correct your mistakes time after time. Here is the
evidence: I posted a question about sailing and you replied with
references to toilets. Now, who's the one reverting to Kindergarten
behavior? The evidence is there, Doug, indexed by Google for
posterity.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

You are correct, I was repeating myself. Wasn't sure you had seen it
the first time around.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

That is very funny Doug... Now it is you who are repeating yourself,
thus you have just defeated yourself by your own yardstick

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing?

Well, since you ask, it's hard to say exactly, something about the
books I read as a kid and the fact that I've been close to sailboats
all my life. There's many reasons why I am interested in sailing,
Doug, but instead of elaborating, can you please tell us again why
_YOU_ are interested in being rude to other group members? Even if
it's "mildly" rude as you admitted yourself? I know that most
newsgroups have a few insecure individuals who try to bolster their
weak egos by trying to belittle others. That may not be your case, but
I am really curious. Can you please elaborate on your true motivation?

By the way, I will repeat myself once more so pay close attention. I
will assume that overall you are a decent human being. I will assume
you regret your snotty opening post. I will assume that you have
learned your lesson. I will assume your rude behavior was a knee jerk
reaction, brought about by years of infighting on Usenet. Furthermore
I will assume that this newsgroup is now a slightly better place
because you will be a little less likely to be rude to strangers in
the future. I have done my part. I called your bluff and so far you
have shown a pretty weak hand.

Consider the wonderful information being shared by members such as
Frank and Wayne to name a few. That is the true spirit of Usenet
coming forth. Many thanks to them and the rest.

Bob Whitaker

P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs? I'm going to
ask Frank this same question, but I welcome participation from all.
Also, nice pictures of you and your wife flying the spinnaker on the
Jn-18. And by the way, I'm still curious about what you think of Cape
Dorys.




DSK wrote in message t...
Bob Whitaker wrote:
... Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing? It seems to take a back
seat to kindergarten squabbling.

DSK

(Bob Whitaker) asked:
....snip...
P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?
....snip...

Well, you've perhaps already guessed my response. grin

Frank's Rig Rant
aka My Opinion and Welcome to It

KETCHES

I have a coupla years of ownership of, and a decent amount of offshore miles
on, ketches (the one I owned and, later, my father-in-law's). Like many of
the other boat types I've spurned in this thread, I find them lovely to look
at, elegant in repose, nautical in presentation, and pretty much a slow
pain-in-the-ass as a sailboat on all but a couple of points of sail. Allow
me to rant against ketches for a bit.

Their defenders claim many advantages to this rig: two masts for redundancy
in case of a dismasting; split sailplan gives easier sail handling; multiple
masts and the various types of sails they support allow unparalleled ability
to match your canvas to conditions; ...have I forgotten anything?

So, my response is:

Split sail plans make sail handling easier. Sure, in 1904, when some poor
sucker had to go below, carry up a heavy, wet canvas sail, hank it on, then
haul it up the wooden mast with a hemp rope using primitive types of
mechanical advantage. But this is 2004. Who nowadays does not have a roller
furling jib? Hell! Even some racers have 'em. You no longer hafta change
headsails for every 5 knots of wind. And as for difficulties in hauling
halyards... if you're experiencing exasperation, buy bigger Barients. I see
lots of traditional cruisers with POWERED winches. Come on, this is not a
realistic factor. In my experience, split sailplans simply add to your
workload. Not that big a deal in mild conditions; but we all seem to love to
talk about "heavy weather" and 'big seas." Me, I'm lazy. I want my life to
be easy in easy conditions and I *need* my life to be easy in complicated
conditions. When a squall comes up, the sloop reels in a couple reefs on the
main with his single-line reefing, rolls in the jib some, and he's ready. Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself. The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition. I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

Well, actually I'm gonna make two exceptions to my general rant here. I
would endorse the Freedom cat-ketches; plus, there's a Freedom cat-schooner
(I don't know what else you'd call the Freedom 39), which I'd endorse. Of
course, these rigs are pretty alien to a "normal" ketch or schooner; so it's
really a case of apples and oranges.

CUTTERS

My simplest response is that I don't see any realistic benefit to a cutter
over a sloop, just expensive, unnecessary complications. People talk about
"balancing the rig" and all that kinda mystical sail trim stuff; but IMO if
you have a well designed sloop (and I grant that that's a measurable "if"),
you can balance just as easily. No, make that *easier* 'cause you only have
two sails to deal with rather than three. And on those *occasional*days when
you're not in survival weather, you avoid the complications of additional
rigging and sails. Think having to walk the jib around when you tack. Now
think about doing that in heavy seas. You gonna do it or you gonna send your
wife forward? Parenthetically, cutters sometimes (often) push the jib out
onto a bowsprit. Ick! Ick! Ick! Bowsprits are another one of those things
which I like to look at on other people's boats; but damned if I want one.
The sea is an unforgiving environment. Why give it an easy way to destroy
your rig and tear holes in your boat?

SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

And that's my $.02 on *that* one. wink

Frank

(Bob Whitaker) asked:
P.S. What do you think of cutter vs sloop vs ketch rigs?


"vs" as in racing? No question, the sloop is better hands down. That's
why the other rigs get a rating bonus... for a while back in the 1950s
the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.


Frank Maier wrote:
Well, you've perhaps already guessed my response. grin

Frank's Rig Rant
aka My Opinion and Welcome to It

KETCHES

I have a coupla years of ownership of, and a decent amount of offshore miles
on, ketches (the one I owned and, later, my father-in-law's). Like many of
the other boat types I've spurned in this thread, I find them lovely to look
at, elegant in repose, nautical in presentation, and pretty much a slow
pain-in-the-ass as a sailboat on all but a couple of points of sail. Allow
me to rant against ketches for a bit.

No no, stop.... oops, too late


Their defenders claim many advantages to this rig: two masts for redundancy
in case of a dismasting; split sailplan gives easier sail handling; multiple
masts and the various types of sails they support allow unparalleled ability
to match your canvas to conditions; ...have I forgotten anything?

Better balance on different points of sail? That might be included in
matching canvas to conditions. How about a lower sailplan causing less
heeling moment, and less stress on the hull?



So, my response is:

Split sail plans make sail handling easier. Sure, in 1904, when some poor
sucker had to go below, carry up a heavy, wet canvas sail, hank it on, then
haul it up the wooden mast with a hemp rope using primitive types of
mechanical advantage. But this is 2004. Who nowadays does not have a roller
furling jib? Hell! Even some racers have 'em. You no longer hafta change
headsails for every 5 knots of wind. And as for difficulties in hauling
halyards... if you're experiencing exasperation, buy bigger Barients. I see
lots of traditional cruisers with POWERED winches. Come on, this is not a
realistic factor. In my experience, split sailplans simply add to your
workload.

It also adds to the maintenance workload, and rigging does not last
forever. When you have to replace extra line, not to mention standing
rigging, the bill will be substantial.

... Not that big a deal in mild conditions; but we all seem to love to
talk about "heavy weather" and 'big seas." Me, I'm lazy. I want my life to
be easy in easy conditions and I *need* my life to be easy in complicated
conditions. When a squall comes up, the sloop reels in a couple reefs on the
main with his single-line reefing, rolls in the jib some, and he's ready. Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Agreed definitely. One of the most fun boats I've sailed, 'fun' for all
the wrong reasons, was a 40-ish foot steel ketch owned by the Great
Lakes Naval Training Center Sailing Club. It had been donated long ago,
and was kind of tired but well preserved under three inches of gray
paint. The Navy in it's wisdom had welded pad eyes at many odd places
about the deck, which came in handy when trying out different sail
combinations. That boat had been gutted, no cabin whatever, just a big
steel box. It also had a sail inventory that God would envy, there were
at least twenty five BIG bags and dozens of small ones... although to be
fair some of the small ones were the clubs racing-dinghy sails, which
often got used as mizzens & mizzen staysails.

It was a fun boat to sail on the cold & often rough waters of Lake
Michigan. It was also a very wet boat... it didn't lift much to choppy
waves and would throw trainloads of water over the crew. But we had a
great time experimenting mizzen staysails and tallboys and spinnakers
and watersails and huge ballooners sheeted to the mizzen boom etc etc.

Does everyone see why I say it "was a fun boat for all the wrong
reasons?" Even with a fully outfitted cabin, it would be a poor cruising
boat (which probably explains why it was donated to the Navy).

BTW this boat was rumored to have once belonged to Humphrey Bogart.


... (great material regretfully snipped for brevity)...
For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

And he is also notorious for asking other sailors to give him a tow

Aside from that petty sniping "Iolare" is an awesome boat... I'm just
not dedicated enough to own such masterpiece.



CUTTERS

My simplest response is that I don't see any realistic benefit to a cutter
over a sloop, just expensive, unnecessary complications. People talk about
"balancing the rig" and all that kinda mystical sail trim stuff; but IMO if
you have a well designed sloop (and I grant that that's a measurable "if"),
you can balance just as easily. No, make that *easier* 'cause you only have
two sails to deal with rather than three.

If you're talking about cutters compared to sloops, then sure... but I'd
say that a ketch is (and some but not all yawls are) easier to balance.
You can move the center of effort much further forward or aft, and the
sheeting vectors don't yank the boat around as unpredictably. Yawls are
not as good because while they can move the CE well aft, they don't
benefit as much the other way (moving the CE forward) by furling the
mizzen, since so many yawls are already sloops with an added mizzen anyway.


With regard to rig redundancy, which Frank mentioned but in another
context... many people talk about how rigs with more standing rigging
are more secure. This ignores the basic engineering fact that each stay
puts a compression load on the mast. More stays equal more compression.
If designed by a capable engineer, more stays *can* be stronger but it
ain't necessarily so.

They also equal more places where bits of metal are bolted to the hull
and need periodic maintenance, and more potential failure points.

OK, I've had it for intelligent discussion... can I call somebody names
now? C'mere jax jax jax, I got a cookie for ya

Fresh Breezes- Doug King

the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.

the mizzen sail on a yawl is an easy, effective way to balance a boat's sails.
This can be more important on a larger boat with a tiller for steering.

the yawl enjoyed a breif resurgence as designers stuck a handy mizzen on
the back of a sloop and got a rating gift. I think this is where most of
todays' sailors got their experience with yawls.


JAXAshby wrote:
the mizzen sail on a yawl is an easy, effective way to balance a boat's sails.
This can be more important on a larger boat with a tiller for steering.

That's *certainly* true... many's the time I have sailed large sloops
with tillers, wishing I had a way to set more sail area aft so that the
boat would have *more* weather helm...

DSK

On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:

Wa
nna go through the Chinese-fire-drill laundry list to do the same
preparation for a ketch, flying as many as five different sails? Hurry,
hurry, Hercules!

Well, the idea is to have furling on the most used sails: staysail and
jib. In heavy weather, you have the mizzen and a staysail, or maybe
1/3 jib unrolled. Yes, they can be pokey and they don't point well
compared to a sloop, but they have other advantages on broad reaches
and the like. Personally, I don't find another stick a big hassle, but
it's a great place to mount the radar and other bits and pieces.

Oh, and the safety factor or having an extra mast for redundancy, in case
one comes down...? Well, if you'll notice, many ketches use a triatic stay
as part of their rigging. This ties the masts together! If one comes down,
they're both coming down. Twice as much work, even in failure more!

You know, I haven't seen that particular widow-maker on ANY schooner
or ketch outside of a picture book. I agree that they're a menace, but
I can't say I believe anyone seriously uses them anymore.


The ability of a ketch to customize a wider variety of sail combinations
than a sloop is theoretically true. So what? A sloop with a roller furling
jib and some kind of short-hand-friendly flying sail (asymmetrical
spinnaker, cruising 'chute, whatever) is capable of easily and simply
creating a pretty damned wide variety of sail configurations itself.

Yes, with a taller mast, which means bigger main, etc. What I like is
the committed staysail stay, which can be the last sail up in big
wind, and yet is far kinder to drive than a mostly rolled up yankee,
say.

The
"fact" that a ketch can put up staysails in combination with various size
sails on her dual masts, along with various types of jibs, etc. doesn't
necessarily mean that the ketch has a *better* ability to fly the perfect
sailplan for a given condition.

No, it doesn't. But the possibility is there, and I find I can handle
a marginally larger ketch than sloop due to individual sail areas. I
lose on pointing, but gain on downwind. Also, when you comtemplate
less-common options, like a mizzen spinnaker, you can rig maximum sail
for prolonged light-air conditions.

I guarantee that a sloop with a roller
furling jib and an easy-to-handle flying sail will make better time and
arrive at her destination with a more rested crew than a ketch in almost all
conditions, especially if there's any windward work involved.

Maybe. But I would hesitate to make blanket statements of that kind
other than I agree they don't point as high generally.

And by the way, IMO, you should replace your standing rigging every ten
years. Wanna get a coupla cost estimates of the price difference between
rerigging a sloop and rerigging a ketch? Ouch!

Sure, but if anti-ketch sentiments prevail, I'll get a great deal and
will save enough to re-rig, right? G

For the sake of saving me a lot of time, I'll just throw yawls into this
group. Not perfectly appropriate; but good enough for Usenet. For a defense
of the yawl as the only possible "real" sailing rig, see any of Don Street's
writings. He loves his yawl with a passion.

Yawls are great, too, in certain conditions and waters, but I bet
Don's one of the few people who can still sail one effectively. You
see the occasional new ketch design, but a yawl? Not unless it's
custom.

The other multi-mast type of rig, although not mentioned in the OP, is the
schooner. Guess what I think about them? cynical grin

I find a ketch solves most of the problems of a schooner, unless I am
delivering tea from China to Baltimore, in which case I'll go with the
schooner. Recall "Atlantic": schooners are no slouches, or don't have
to be.

snip


SLOOPS

A modern simple sloop is really an elegant setup, especially for
single-or-short-handers. A main with single-line reefing, a roller-furling
jib, and some kind of easy-to-use flying sail give you a rig which is simple
and easy to handle, easy to adjust for changing conditions, and a lot
cheaper than buying all the sails you need to power a ketch through the same
range of conditions.

Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

I can anticipate how you view junk rigs or gaff-rigs...G

R.

rhys wrote: On 23 Mar 2004 01:46:47 -0800,
....snip a lotta good discussion...
Well, I *own* a sloop with a beefy rig and a huge (maybe too huge) J
measurement, but I may go with a cutter/ketch eventually, because I've
sailed both and think the ketch has its place. But hey, as long as
we're sailing, I don't care if it's a log with a blanket on a stick.

Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing. Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

See ya,

Frank

On 26 Mar 2004 11:53:18 -0800, (Frank Maier) wrote:


Sorry to be late in responding, I just "discovered" your post in the
confusion of this complex thread.

Well,. that's understandable. In my news reader, I try to spot a flash
of red (unread) among hordes of black (read or ignored) type.

My only response is that I think the OP is really getting his money's
worth out of this one. Your opinions and experience are certainly as
vaild as mine and now the OP has pretty much a full spectrum of
opinions and commentary to pick through.

Ah, the beauty of Usenet. Loads of information and critical thought
and none of it paid for.


I certainly agree that sailing *anything* is better than sitting home
not sailing.

I once heard a similar justification for sleeping with ugly, stupid
people. Sometimes sitting at home is better than going out with loud
morons who haven't a clue and let the hoses rot off the rusted open
thru-hulls. But that's, thankfully, the exception.


Even after all my pro-sloop ranting, I do still include
the Freedom 39 cat-schooner on my short list. Wouldn't it be amusing
if, after all my sloop propagandizing, I wound up with a *schooner* as
my next boat.

Hey, if I find a deal I won't quibble G I might very well change my
thinking, particularly if I decide I want to circumnavigate east to
west G But a ketch still has, in my mind, some advantages,
particularly with a hefty inner forestay and a functional staysail. I
mean, I have a sloop, but one of my favourite points of sail is a beam
reach using a No. 3 on a pendant and my barely used, wire luff "genoa
staysail", a big light thing the original owner evidently couldn't
figure out. I had to reference a brilliant 1975 book called "Sail
Power" by Wally Ross to learn how to set the thing. (It involved the
toerails!)

But in ten knots, that amount of sail will trounce even the biggest
No. 1 and mainsail combo. Anyway, I still have some things to learn
about sloops, so I hope I live long enough to master the ketch. When I
SEE a cat-schooner, I'll try to hitch a ride. I think I saw exactly
one here in Toronto...at a distance. It seemed to move fine G

R.