Matt Pedersen wrote:

The Tartan has a nice reputation but the centerboard doesn't
kick up if you run aground and it can be hard to repair the
mechanism if you ground hard and bend something.

Hello Matt,

Thanks for your great contributions to this thread. I enjoyed pouring
over the many details you provided. I'm glad I'm not the only one with
some reservations about centerboards. The fact that they can break,
and the reduced righting moment are almost deal breakers in my mind.
Granted there will be many places I won't be able to go, but the list
of places I _WILL_ be able to go to is already endless so I don't
think I'll run out of places to go ) My main concern is safety...
under some circumstances a centerboard may be "safer" but overall I
think the balance tips towards a fixed keel.

As I mentioned to Frank on a previous post, one of the things I am
curious about is how different boats behave under bare poles in heavy
winds. Do you know how the Ranger 33 behaves? Or the other boats on
your list? Will they go bow to wind? stern to wind? or lay abeam? I
don't have that much experience under bare poles but I read somewhere
that most designs that lay bow to wind tend to have full keels,
whereas most modern designs will tend to lay abeam. Do you have any
experience in this?

Thanks,

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"



"Matt/Meribeth Pedersen" wrote in message hlink.net...
"Bob Whitaker" wrote in message
om...

Wow, impressive list of boats! Thanks for the post! I'd be interested
in knowing which of these you liked best and which you've had the
opportunity to sail under reduced sail and how they handled. I'm very
interested in your comments, specially about pros and cons of
centerboards. I just thought it might be yet another thing that could
break down so I wasn't considering centerboard boats for my dream trip
(even if it meant missing out on shallow anchorages). I may start a
new thread on this topic one of these days, seeing as the original
post turned into mud-slinging central.

I think the Morgan 34 (and the CCA era M33, not the Out Island) are
pretty good boats. The Tartan has a nice reputation but the
centerboard doesn't kick up if you run aground and it can
be hard to repair the mechanism if you ground hard and bend something.
The Morgan 34 CB doesn't kick up either, but if you do break
something it is relatively easy to fix since it's a cable mechanism.

I have sailed on the Alberg 35, Ericson 35, C&C 34 (deep keel),
Ranger 33 and Yankee 30. All of them are decent boats but the C&C
is more squirrely than I like going dead downwind. I think the
Ranger 33 is probably the best sailing boat of the bunch, it really
has no vices. I extensively crewed on a Ranger 33 for a number
of years, racing in all weathers. It was my first experience with a
keel boat that stayed on its feet in heavy air downwind.. A friend
who owned one swears by them..
You might get arguments from owners of the Ericson 35 that they
are just as good as the Ranger, but I don't have the heavy air miles
on one to confirm the opinion ( and I'm thinking of the Bruce King
designed Mark II version here). The Yankee 30 also has a good
rep but again my only experience with them is in relatively light
air. They are popular in San Francisco, which tells me they
do pretty well in a breeze. I do like the Ericson 35 a little more
for cruising than the Ranger, the interior and engine access is just
marginally enough nicer that it tips the scales to the Ericson.

All the boats listed will not be a floating condo - don't expect a lot of
room, and some may seem even smaller than the Cal 34.

Random thoughts on the boats I haven't sailed:

The Allied Seawind was the first fiberglass boat to do a circumnavigation,
and I like Tom Gilmer as a designer so it's got to be a good boat

The Luders 34 and Alberg 37 are really pretty boats, but I can't comment
on their handling.

I haven't sailed on the Douglas 32 but it's reportedly a good light air boat
and I think Ted Brewer thought it was one of his better designs.

I have a friend with a Mercator 30 who has taken it to Alaska several
times. Nice boat, enormous V-berth, has a little weather helm.
They are not well known outside of the Pacific Northwest, but at least
one has done a circumnavigation. They could use a little more sail
area, but do make nice cruisers.

The Nich 32 is stout, lots of room for a 32'er and even with her bluff
bow will do pretty well going to windward.

As far a centerboard boats go, for a trip in the Gulf/Florida/Bahamas
I think it's almost a requirement. Not so much for some of the Caribbean.
The big disadvantage is of course the added maintenence of the board
and it's raising/lowering mechanism. That and they can clunk around
in the slot in a seaway, which I always found disconcerting. They
do help you go to windward if your sails are up to it, but there
are many people who glass the board in place and forget about
sailing close winded. I wouldn't, but then I hate sailing boats
that don't go to weather well.

Of course, seaworthiness is always an issue with centerboard boats.
Deep keels have more favorable wieght distribution for resisting
and recovery from capsize. A competent, well prepared crew
should be able to make a centerboarder work for the type of trip
your thinking of though. It wouldn't be my choice for a
circumnavigation, but would be for for Gulf cruising.

AFter the Fastnet storm of 79, there was a lot of research done
on characteristics that help or hinder capsize. One fallout of that
was a capsize screen formula. It is

Beam (feet) divided by displacement^.3333 (displacement to
the 1/3 power, displacement in cubic feet). The result of
this formula should be a value less than 2. I have always
argued that the formula is a little simplistic because it doesn't
take into account ballast placement (you could have 4000
pounds of lead at the top of the mast and the formula would
say you have a seaworthy boat). However, for the boats
under discussion it should give good results.

That's about it for now. Follow up if you'd like, and hopefully
the discussion won't go off track like an IOR boat in a breeze again.

Matt

On 18 Mar 2004 01:26:21 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

As I mentioned to Frank on a previous post, one of the things I am
curious about is how different boats behave under bare poles in heavy
winds. Do you know how the Ranger 33 behaves? Or the other boats on
your list? Will they go bow to wind? stern to wind? or lay abeam? I
don't have that much experience under bare poles but I read somewhere
that most designs that lay bow to wind tend to have full keels,
whereas most modern designs will tend to lay abeam. Do you have any
experience in this?

OK, here's some stuff out of left field. I own a Viking 33, a C&C
design commissioned by Ontario Yachts, who did the Niagara 31 and 35s.
This is a well-built racer-cruiser that looks like a C&C 34 on a
strict diet. Beam 9' 10, LWL 27'. and the typical enormous J of the
era at 15'.

Why mention it? Because the guy who got me into sailing lived aboard a
Ranger 33 and claimed that my boat was very similar in handling and
sea-keeping. Certainly the stats of the two boats are not far removed.

So, maybe my answers will help. I would add the Viking 33 to your
list, but it's got low freeboard and not a lot of beam compared to
modern boats...the qualities that make them fast Great Lakes and
coastal cruisers mean they would be a little fatiguing and short of
stowage on the big briny. Or so I think. I know a lot of 'em went from
Lake Ontario down south as far as Trinidad, so maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway:

Will they go bow to wind?

Because of the small main and the long J, I find lashing the storm jib
down and fiddling with the tiller can allow me to crab when the wind's
too grim to safely proceed.


stern to wind? If I'm running, I run, in broad reaches if possible.
Dead downwind is tricky and not particularly fast and can get wet.


or lay abeam?

With 4500 lbs of keel on a 10,000 lb. boat, she stays on her feet
pretty well. But boats like mine and I would think the Ranger 33 do
exhibit an unpleasant "whip" in beam seas. So I tend to avoid them
where possible. It won't hurt the boat, but it's hard on the crew,
something that could be said of a lot of C&C designs.

I
don't have that much experience under bare poles but I read somewhere
that most designs that lay bow to wind tend to have full keels,
whereas most modern designs will tend to lay abeam. Do you have any
experience in this?

I have been out under reefs in sustained 40 knots in the square waves
of Lake Ontario (9-10 feet and breaking). I have never thought it
politic to stay still in such weather, and find that my boat sails
well and safely under reduced sail, although I have been quite glad
for the buoyancy in the bow surfing off some of those waves.

Boat characteristics are to a point of far less importance than the
ability of the skipper to sail effectively and with proper seamanship.
These days, it's not necessary in most cases to "get caught" by the
weather, and very few situations are "survival". There's a big
knowledge gap, however, in that a lot of recreational sailors come in
around the 20-25 knot mark, because of comfort or fear issues. Between
25-40 knots is in my mind where the best sailing and passagemaking is
found. If you can learn how to keep the boat going without busting
things in that, the make and model becomes less important. Modern
boats are made to provide "fun times" in relatively benign conditions.
I've found that older styled boats lose on this score because
potential buyers see them poking along in 10 knots, instead of the 30
knots of the open ocean with which they leap to life. Figure out the
type of sailing and the area in which you think you are going, and go
from there. Under 35 feet there are real "blue-water" bargains,
because that's too small for a lot of modern tastes, too cramped, too
free of amenities. It's a very manageable size for a single-hander or
couple, however, and is easier to manage in terms of sail wrangling.
But nice seakeeping designs at 30-35 feet tend to look pokey or low or
pudgy and not like the fridge-shaped Hunters and so on that look great
at dock and give me the willies when I think of them in a proper blow.

Good luck and hope this helps.

R.

A couple of boats that come to mind are the Tartan 34 and Morgan
34. Both are similar in concept, if not in execution, to the Cal.
Tartan 34's have a good reputation and thus a higher price,
but Morgan owners love their boats too.

Some others to consider that haven't been mentioned yet:

Allied Luders 34, Seawind
Alberg 30, 37 (Alberg designed some of the Cape Dories or is it Cape Dory's)
C&C's are decent boats, and some are centerboarders
Douglas 32
Ericson 35 is a decent boat if a foot too long
Fuji 35 is pretty shippy
Mercator 30
Nicholson 32
Newport 33
Pearson Alberg 35
Ranger 33
Santana 30 (not the 30/30)
Yankee 30

Most of these can be had for decent prices (sub $30k) and are a little
more conservative in design, a lot of them have centerboards.

Matt

"Bob Whitaker" wrote in message
om...
Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.

rhys wrote:

How about a Bruce Roberts design?

Hello rhys,

I've seen them advertised, but never sailed one. I always thought they
would be sturdy, but they wouldn't win too many speed awards... but
that's just my completely unfounded bias. Does anybody else have any
actual sailing experience with a Bruce Roberts design? Maybe this
question deserves a new thread.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"


rhys wrote in message . ..
On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.

rhys wrote:

How about a Bruce Roberts design?

Hello rhys,

I've seen them advertised, but never sailed one. I always thought they
would be sturdy, but they wouldn't win too many speed awards... but
that's just my completely unfounded bias. Does anybody else have any
actual sailing experience with a Bruce Roberts design? Maybe this
question deserves a new thread.

Bob Whitaker
"Free Spirit"


rhys wrote in message . ..
On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.

On 11 Mar 2004 22:53:17 -0800, (Bob Whitaker)
wrote:

Hello,

Been thinking of moving up to the 30-34 foot range, ideally a sailboat
that would provide safety in open waters, extended cruising
situations. Would love to get a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 34, but "The
Admiral" won't let me, and the bank won't either... I would prefer a
project boat (I would actually enjoy it). Heard great things of Cal
34's. What other boats do folks recommend. Goal is extended coastal
cruising, crossing Gulf of Mexico (Corpus Christi, TX to FL), keys,
Bahamas, maybe extended Caribbean cruising.

Bit late in the day, but it just occured to me because I've been
window-shopping: How about a Bruce Roberts design? Many of them are
well-made "kit" boats that arrive assembled but bare, and the "project
boat" guys get in too deep and never finish them. Frequently, you can
get 35 or 37 footers for a song and do the interior yourself.

But you have to be pretty willing to do the work or learn to do the
work.

R.