Why don't you follow it?

BB

(JAXAshby) wrote


and, so it goes.

On 19 Mar 2004 15:38:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

unless, of course, you are short of bux and worrying because you spent the wad
on a BIG boat.

================================================== ====

I have no problem with small boats but no one should ever be misled
into believing that they are adequate offshore cruisers. There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:50:50 GMT, "Matt/Meribeth Pedersen"
wrote:


I'll second that one. Forgot about the Viking 33 but it is a good boat too.

I stumbled on a bit of a deal, despite the extensive restoration and
refitting I am gradually doing. I only found out after I learned to
sail it that it's a bit of a hot rod, and yet built "old school"
enough to take pretty brutal conditions. Or, at least, the blessedly
brief, but still significant seas Lake Ontario can generate. A line
squall here is as bad as anywhere, and you want a tough boat if you
decide to stay out for the filling-in wind that follows.

The advice given later in the post is right on. I've never laid under bare
poles except as an experiment on deliveries, and the boats I've done this
in all seemed to end up lying abeam to the seas (they've all been fin
keelers of differing aspect ratios).

It's appropriate for the kind of boats that are pretty rare these
days. I would lie abeam in a Contessa 26 if I thought it would help,
because it's got a hull like a fortune cookie. Fin keelers get slapped
around too much and if they are carrying sail, they can tip brutally.

Bare poles always seemed to be a technique used only in desperate
situations. Whether a boat lies bow to the wind (this being a relative
term, I think you mean something above maybe 60 degrees or so) is
mostly a function of windage. More windage aft and you will lie closer to
the
wind, but I can guarantee that if you have a roller furling headsail or high
freeboard at the bow and low freeboard aft you will never do so.
Way too much windage too far forward.

I agree. I prefer active sailing with a reefed staysail (ideally) or a
storm jib tacked low or on a short (3-5 foot) pendant. For my boat's
design, this is a good tactic. For others, it would be wrong. I find
reading old cruising narratives (Hiscocks, Roth, Moitessier, etc.) and
even racing stuff from the '60s (Chichester, Rose, Knox-Johnson,
Taberly) has helped to shape my heavy-weather ideas. I carry enough
line for warps off the stern, but have never had to slow the boat down
that much. Which I count as a Good Thing.

I think the current thinking is that laying under bare poles is a pretty
risky technique. Most boats tend to lie beam to the seas and this is
the most vulnerable position (Van Dorn says if you are beam to
a breaking wave approximately the beam of your boat you are likely to
be capsized and tank testing has confirmed that). I think the choices
are either active sailing (many boats can actually sail upwind in
big wind and waves under autopilot if the waves are relatively
consistent and the wind doesn't fluctuate too much), or using some
sort of drag device. The Drag Device Database is a good place to
read up on that - lots of good true stories about what works and
what might not. I think the author has a web site at www.dddb.com

Thanks. Even in theory, this stuff gets filed for future reference,
and I do intend to world cruise one day. Odds are, if I recall, only
circa 5-10% that I'll encounter 40 knots plus sustained in any given
passage (I forget where I heard this), and some people cruise for
years and years without ever getting seriously whacked by weather, but
I remember the Scout motto when I am at the tiller...G

R.

Bob Whitaker wrote:
... Soundly
defeating you at your own game is rather entertaining if not very
challenging.

If you're repeating yourself, you're defeating yourself.

And it looks as though you are entertained by toilets.

Tell us again why you're interested in sailing? It seems to take a back
seat to kindergarten squabbling.

DSK

There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.


Depends on the boat. Our Orion 27 (made by Pacific Seacraft) is pretty
comfortable in rough conditions. It can keep up with bigger boats (about 35 to
40 feet) both into and downwind in those rough conditions too.

I am defining rough conditions as over 25 knots.


Dick

Wayne, a Bristol 27 will be far more comfortable at sea than a Nimrod 36.

unless, of course, you are short of bux and worrying because you spent the
wad
on a BIG boat.

================================================= =====

I have no problem with small boats but no one should ever be misled
into believing that they are adequate offshore cruisers. There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.

and compare that boat to some litewait 36 foot thing made in by Great White
Hunters in Florida.

the Orion is much better.

There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.


Depends on the boat. Our Orion 27 (made by Pacific Seacraft) is pretty
comfortable in rough conditions. It can keep up with bigger boats (about 35
to
40 feet) both into and downwind in those rough conditions too.

I am defining rough conditions as over 25 knots.


Dick

In article ,
ake (Dick) wrote:

There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.


Depends on the boat. Our Orion 27 (made by Pacific Seacraft) is pretty
comfortable in rough conditions. It can keep up with bigger boats (about 35 to
40 feet) both into and downwind in those rough conditions too.

I am defining rough conditions as over 25 knots.


Dick



I had a friend who owned a Hans Christian 43 footer. She was at home in rough
seas and 25+ knots.

Hans also made a 33 footer, I believe.

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:41:49 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On 19 Mar 2004 15:38:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

unless, of course, you are short of bux and worrying because you spent the wad
on a BIG boat.

================================================= =====

I have no problem with small boats but no one should ever be misled
into believing that they are adequate offshore cruisers. There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.

Very good point. There's a lot of quite small boats that can take
horrendous storms, can go around Cape Horn, visit the Antarctic and so
on. All that's been proved by competent, if masochistic, sailors for
several decades. But "able to" and "desirable" are two different
things. If all you can afford is a small boat, and it will be 20 years
before you can get a 40 footer, by all means emulate the Pardeys and
bugger off in something safe and tiny. Don't expect to be always dry
and comfortable, and do expect to be slow if cheaper to fix and
maintain. Your nautical miles may vary.

Actually, when I think about it, a smaller boat can be safer in the
sense that a compact cabin doesn't have a lot of room to fall in the
case of a knockdown, and usually has handholds everywhere. A larger
boat has a slower roll and time to grab stuff. It's the mid-range
boats that have the worst of both worlds. I was in a Tartan 3700
recently and I thought "wow, nice boat, but in a blow iI would be like
a dried seed in an empty gourd in he perfect arm-breaking
conditions. But then, most modern saloons seem too much like living
rooms to me.

R.

'smaller boat can be safer in the sense that a compact cabin doesn't have a
lot of room to fall in the case of a knockdown, and usually has handholds
everywhere.'
This statement makes sense. I got involved with my 27' sailboat in 40 foot
waves. My wife and I were unable to remain inside the cabin. First thing,
the boat has to be steered up and down the crests. The boat was not the
problem. It's me that was the problem. I was throwing up most of the time
and could not hold any food or liquid. I was tied to the cockpit with a
plastic bucket between my legs. Most sailboats will survive a severe storm
it's the human that cants. I have the impression that if my boat would have
been larger I would not have been able to go up and down the 40 foot waves.
That does not mean that I do not want a larger boat!


"rhys" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 23:41:49 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On 19 Mar 2004 15:38:47 GMT, (JAXAshby) wrote:

unless, of course, you are short of bux and worrying because you spent
the wad
on a BIG boat.

================================================= =====

I have no problem with small boats but no one should ever be misled
into believing that they are adequate offshore cruisers. There's no
question that people can, and do, go offshore in small boats. That
doesn't mean it's a comfortable sail however. It's more like spending
a week in a washing machine unless you are blessed with fair weather
and down wind conditions.

Very good point. There's a lot of quite small boats that can take
horrendous storms, can go around Cape Horn, visit the Antarctic and so
on. All that's been proved by competent, if masochistic, sailors for
several decades. But "able to" and "desirable" are two different
things. If all you can afford is a small boat, and it will be 20 years
before you can get a 40 footer, by all means emulate the Pardeys and
bugger off in something safe and tiny. Don't expect to be always dry
and comfortable, and do expect to be slow if cheaper to fix and
maintain. Your nautical miles may vary.

Actually, when I think about it, a
boat has a slower roll and time to grab stuff. It's the mid-range
boats that have the worst of both worlds. I was in a Tartan 3700
recently and I thought "wow, nice boat, but in a blow iI would be like
a dried seed in an empty gourd in he perfect arm-breaking
conditions. But then, most modern saloons seem too much like living
rooms to me.

R.