"Paul Cassel" wrote in message
. ..
Strikes me as silly to size your boat to the mass of the maximum anchor /
rode you can handle when reliable windlasses are easily available.

I recommend a different rant - that of sail size. Most people are defeated
more by sail handling than anchor handling. BTW, if you wish to further
rant on anchors, I suggest you rant on Fortress rather than Danforth hi
tensile as the Fortress are even lighter.

Sail size is also important. But, it is often stated by competent sailors
who write about such things that a man in good physical condition can hand
and/or reef individual sails up to 500 square feet each even in strong
winds. This size sail can be found on boats up to about forty feet LOA which
vessels require anchors in the 50-60 pound range to be held securely in a
storm.

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the vessel
and sized on the heavy end of the spectrum for added safety even when just
anchoring for lunch in seeming benign conditions. It is often truly stated
that it's not the water that usually damages or destroys boats but the hard
stuff around the water's edge and weather is fickle and unreliable so why
trust to luck?

But, let's examine the folly of large yachts for the elderly and those
others of diminished physical capacity. Large yachts do indeed, require
large heavy anchors. These then require large, heavy, high-amperage
windlasses, long lengths of heavy chain which in turn require a large heavy
battery bank, generator or heavy diesel with heavy alternator, heavy thick
wiring etc. All these things are failure-prone in the salt water
environment. And, when one has a large heavy generator and auxiliary one
usually has large heavy tankage and perhaps one or two large heavy
refrigerators/freezers and all sorts of other electrical systems all of
which require proper and constant maintenance. Is this how an elderly crew
of a too-large vessel wants to spend their majority of their time?

Or do they really wish to enjoy sailing in a more pure form. Small yachts
allow more sailing time for the buck. They allow more enjoyable sailing
because of the reduced physical effort required. In that regard they can be
said to be safer because time spent learning how to sail the vessel
competently is increased because maintenance and trouble-shooting time is
decreased. If you've been following the soap opera that is the Skip Gundlach
show you will know exactly what I'm talking about as the bulk of his time
seems to be spent as an aground (and sometimes water-borne) grease monkey,
electrician, plumber, carpenter, etc.

While some of you who are on the younger side of the spectrum find this
interesting and challenging, I would argue than elderly folks have been
there/done that and would rather be sailing than mucking around with grease
up their elbows squinting at things they can hardly see anymore and busting
their fragile skin and knuckles on sharp objects or straining their
skeletons and musculature attempting to squeeze into awkward positions or
lifting heavy objects.

On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions. If there is a stout current running which is the case in many
anchorages the damned things are worst than useless. They fly like a kite in
the current and likely will never grab bottom. People who are sold on
Fortress anchors are duffers who are obviously inexperienced lake and calm
water sailors. People like that certainly are NOT to be considered qualified
blue water sailors for their disregard for prudence and safety is readily
apparent.

For those of you who wish information, a Danforth or Fortress is a fine
anchor in some conditions such as sand, but not nearly as good in oyster
or rock.

One should carry a variety of anchors suited to a variety of bottom types.
That's quite obvious but each and every one should be of a size that a
crewman or woman can hand without mechanical/electrical assistance because
sooner or later systems will fail and the safety of the yacht compromised.
This means a smaller yacht is called for when smaller abilities are
contained therein. Light aluminum anchors have no place on a well-found
ocean going yacht. They are a joke, an illusion and a travesty. That they
continued to be sold is a commentary on how sailing has become just another
bastion of the sloppy and inept.


Personally, I see no issues with an electric windless (or capstan). I've
never heard of a boat being permanently anchored due to the windless
failing to weigh anchor. Have you?

Permanent, no! Delayed, yes oftentimes. Real sailors brook no delay based on
the frivolous or an imagined necessity that, in reality, is little more than
a ball and chain?

Wilbur Hubbard

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

heavily snipped-Wilbur seems to think that older people are all decrepit
and unfit

On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every
real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions.

Wilbur got that right anyway. And Fortress anchors are not even solid. some
parts are held on with little screws!

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

heavily snipped-Wilbur seems to think that older people are all decrepit
and unfit

On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every
real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions.

Wilbur got that right anyway. And Fortress anchors are not even solid.
some parts are held on with little screws!



So what Neal is saying is... use an anchor appropriate to the bottom.
Duhhh... not exactly rocket science to figure that out.

--
"j" ganz @@
www.sailnow.com

"Edgar" wrote in message
...

"Wilbur Hubbard" wrote in message
anews.com...

heavily snipped-Wilbur seems to think that older people are all decrepit
and unfit

Because they all ARE! It's a biological fact that the elderly are much
diminished from their mental and physical capacites they embodied in their
prime. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it IS something that should be
taken into consideration. To deny aging equates to diminished capacity is to
deny reality.


On the subject of the Fortress aluminum anchor let me say this. Every
real
sailor knows that a light aluminum anchor is a joke in anything but ideal
conditions.

Wilbur got that right anyway. And Fortress anchors are not even solid.
some parts are held on with little screws!

At least there still remains to you some common sense. When I stated that
Fortress anchors are a joke I meant every word of it.

An aluminum anchor is tantamount to a lead balloon! There exists a market
for such garbage only because of stupid, ignorant or crazy people.

Wilbur Hubbard

On 2008-04-14 13:27:55 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Because they all ARE! It's a biological fact that the elderly are much
diminished from their mental and physical capacites they embodied in their
prime. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it IS something that should be
taken into consideration. To deny aging equates to diminished capacity is to
deny reality.

But to assert that they are incapable is to deny reality as well.

It's not an either-or, but a "both" solution. My wife can't manhandle
systems on our boat the way I do. She needs winch handles, for
instance, and couldn't easily haul our current anchor and chain by
hand. She's a little girl and never had that sort of strength.

But she can handle a properly set-up 46' cat as easily as our pocket
cruiser once she learns the systems.

All it takes is adapting your systems and techniques to the available skills.

Sometimes the system needed *is* a smaller boat. We have a few people
on our docks who aren't old or particularly incapable, but don't go out
single-handed. They should have smaller boats. (Some got sailing dinks
for knocking around.)

--
Jere Lull
Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 01:45:07 GMT, Jere Lull wrote:

On 2008-04-14 13:27:55 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
said:

Because they all ARE! It's a biological fact that the elderly are much
diminished from their mental and physical capacites they embodied in their
prime. It's nothing to be ashamed of but it IS something that should be
taken into consideration. To deny aging equates to diminished capacity is to
deny reality.

But to assert that they are incapable is to deny reality as well.

It's not an either-or, but a "both" solution. My wife can't manhandle
systems on our boat the way I do. She needs winch handles, for
instance, and couldn't easily haul our current anchor and chain by
hand. She's a little girl and never had that sort of strength.

But she can handle a properly set-up 46' cat as easily as our pocket
cruiser once she learns the systems.

All it takes is adapting your systems and techniques to the available skills.

Sometimes the system needed *is* a smaller boat. We have a few people
on our docks who aren't old or particularly incapable, but don't go out
single-handed. They should have smaller boats. (Some got sailing dinks
for knocking around.)

Jere I know a couple sailing a 65 foot sloop. Just the two of them. He
is a retired scientist, I'd guess about 70, and she is a few years
younger. I met them in Phuket and they were on the way to the Med and
then back to the east Coast. No crew, just them.

The boat in the next slip to me is a fifty foot sloop and the couple
that own it sailed it from Seattle.

I knew a chap that was 80, he decided to go to America. Sailed north,
alone, to Japan and turned right. The last I heard from him he had
made Midway Island and the US Navy had a party for him.

Even square riggers with their large crews weren't adverse to making
things easier. There was a "patented" topsail that could be reefed in
two sections. The last of the cargo schooners carrying lumber from
Maine to New York sailed with amazingly small crews by using a
gasoline engine powered windlass to haul the lines.

I can probably go on but the point isn't age it is rigging the boat so
that YOU, or YOURS, can sail it. The much maligned Tristan Jones
sailed a boat with no legs at all.

Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:42:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote this crap:

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the vessel

Wilbur Hubbard

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

"Bloody Horvath" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:42:37 -0400, "Wilbur Hubbard"
wrote this crap:

Therefore, though sail size is a limiting factor, it is not as big a
limiting factor as anchor weight. And, I would suggest that more vessels
get
in trouble due to folks futzing around with anchors that are too heavy for
them to handle than with sails that are on the largish end of the
spectrum.
A "lunch hook" is a trouble hook. Always use an anchor sized for the
vessel

Wilbur Hubbard

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.




I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

For your perusal:
Your thirty-five foot yacht, subject to where your are cruising, requires at
least a primary anchor of about 35 pounds and a secondary one of about the
same size. You may be able to get away with an aluminum anchor like the
Fortress or equivalent of about 18 pounds. Not mention the weight of the
chain you have a fair load to hoist. Compound this with a fresh wind when
you lift your anchor and you will not have to go to Body Plus (Gym) that
evening).
The other way is to use an undersize anchor and lifting become much easier
as well as dragging when the wind starts to freshen up. I never had a
windlass for decades with my previous boat using a 13 pounds Danford.
Now, with my new boat I carry three anchors, two of 35 pounds each and one
of 18 pounds. Having pulled my old Danford for decades I appreciate the
electric windlass. My windlass will not work unless the boat engine is on.
Should the windlass becomes not operational I can always return to my basic
training to pull the anchor or use one of the winches.

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:51:23 -0300, wrote
this crap:

I have a thirty-five foot yacht, and NO electric windlass. I have no
problem pulling up the anchor. IMO you don't need one until you get
40 foot or larger.


For your perusal:
Your thirty-five foot yacht, subject to where your are cruising, requires at
least a primary anchor of about 35 pounds and a secondary one of about the

Yeah. So what?


same size. You may be able to get away with an aluminum anchor like the
Fortress or equivalent of about 18 pounds. Not mention the weight of the
chain you have a fair load to hoist. Compound this with a fresh wind when
you lift your anchor and you will not have to go to Body Plus (Gym) that
evening).


35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.





I'm Horvath and I approve of this post.

On 2008-04-14 19:58:04 -0400, Bloody Horvath said:

35 lbs. is hardly more than a sixteen pound bowling ball in each hand.
If you can't handle that... shape up or ship out.

My sixteen year old nephew can pull up the anchor.

Don't forget the chain. We are a size (or maybe two) big on 30' of
chain, so have an additional 30# to haul up. Mud can weigh a bit, too.

I just imagine most 5'2" 125# women trying to haul that by hand.

Yeah, we can lighten our anchor & chain, but would first get a
windlass, as we sleep better with what we have mounted.

--
Jere Lull
Xan-à-Deux -- Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD
Xan's pages: http://web.mac.com/jerelull/iWeb/Xan/
Our BVI trips & tips: http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/