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Old April 15th 08, 08:18 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote:

On Apr 14, 5:50*pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got
the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what
you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess
that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps
a knot or two in flat water.
Jere Lull



I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly
equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the
horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J


Yes. Pounds of thrust times speed in feet per second equals foot
pounds per second. 550 of them equals one HP. And its not 'roughly',
its exact. It is also true that 746 watts equals one HP.Thats rounded
off.

Casady

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Old April 15th 08, 01:15 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Jay
wrote:

On Apr 14, 5:50*pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got
the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what
you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess
that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps
a knot or two in flat water.
Jere Lull



I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly
equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the
horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J


Thrust is a treacherous unit for power. It needs an effective speed to
make it sufficiently specified.

30 lb thrust at 2 mph =
134 Newton at 0.9 meters/second =
120 watts =
1/4 HP (say)

But: 30 lb thrust at 4 mph = closer to 1/2 HP.

Brian W
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Old April 15th 08, 03:08 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

Jay wrote:
On Apr 14, 5:50 pm, Jere Lull wrote: If you've got
the electric already, why not try it and see how it works? From what
you say, it sounds good enough, but only you can accurately assess
that. 30 pounds continuous could get our 28 footer moving at perhaps
a knot or two in flat water.
Jere Lull



I'll give it a try. Does anyone know of a formula to roughly
equate electric motors to horsepower? Would be curious as to the
horsepower equivalent of my Minn-Kota Endura 30. -J


The easiest way would be to find out much current the thing uses.

I*E=P, assume about 90% effeciency, so HP= (P*0.9)/746

If you want that in simpler terms HP= ((volts x amps)*0.9)/746

Cheers
Marty
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Old April 15th 08, 05:36 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6


"Martin Baxter" wrote in message
...
Don't leave out the fact that the electric trolling motor power is
produced directly at the prop. There is significant power loss in a
gas outboard between where it is produced and the prop that does the
work.


Hmm, I don't really know, but I don't think the losses should be all that
big, one little water pump to turn, on set of crown and pinion gears.
Intuitively I don't think you'd lose more than 15%..

I'll bet that most outboard manufactures measure output of just the head,
no shaft, no water pump.


It would not be as much as that. 3-5% would be about the right amount.




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Old April 15th 08, 06:22 PM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

On Tue, 15 Apr 08, saltydog wrote:
power loss in a
gas outboard between where it is produced and the prop that does the
work.


Years ago they measured outboard hp at the crankshaft but I thought
they'd switched to measuring it at the prop at some point.... seems
like in the early 1980's, not sure, it's been awhile back. And for a
few years after that, it was difficult to compare the new X hp engines
with an older engine of the same X hp.
Does anybody besides me remember it that way?

Rick
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Old April 16th 08, 02:01 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

Jay,

I drove myself about half nuts choosing a small outboard for my
inflatable. Decided firmly on the Suzuki DF2.5 four stroke. UPS just
delivered it a few minutes ago. It's a far cry from the old
Johnnyrudes, lemmetellya. Lovely piece of gear indeed.

The $729 you list is actually a pretty decent price, but, in the
interest of not starving, I'm pretty good at finding the rock bottom
lowest prices on stuff. Local dealers wanted almost a grand including
sales tax, so that wouldn't cut it. Found a real nice guy named Ray
Jr. at The Boat Place, Naples Florida, 239-200-9597. Who sold me one
new in factory box, shipped to godforsaken scumhole known as Dallas,
Texas, for over $100 less than your price. He shipped promptly, sent
tracking # immediately, and provided a pleasant buying experience.
Seemed like something you might want to know.

And, as far as I know, 30 lb thrust is roughly one horsepower.

Peace out...........

On Apr 13, 7:15 am, Jay wrote:
On Apr 13, 4:19 am, wrote: Nice boat :-) Frankly, I don't think you can go wrong with anything that's been

mentioned so far. By the sounds of your current needs, electric will
work fine. And it has price and maintenance advantages over gas.
Problem is, your boat has potential to be so much more. If you think
you may ever expand your horizons, you might do better spending the
extra $$ now on gas, just in case.

Actually, the next boat, if there is one in the future, will be a
21' Party Barge pontoon type. I've already received the "word" on
that from above. And it will come with a mega-horsepower motor so
that won't be a decision I'll have to make.

Electric is almost dead silent. I would especially like that on a small quiet lake. And if you store it for years, it'll work when you drag it out. Gas can be more cantankerous when out of mind for that long. There's advantages/disadvantages to both.


I already own a 30 lb. thrust Minn-Kota electric motor and have a
big marine deep cycle battery but didn't think that would even get the
Guide V14 moving at all. How does a 30 lb. thrust electric equate to
a gas outboard. What equivalent horsepower?

Another consideration. It's natural for people to want more than they have. We'll always want something a little bigger, a little faster, a little more. So if you fall into that category, you might as well consider 15-20hp and be done with it lol! OR go electric for very few dollars now and start saving for when the expansion bug bites.


I don't fall into that category nor do I buy compulsively I
carefully choose my purchases after looking into possible future needs
and if I'm gonna pull water skiers or jet across the reservoir at Mach
1 it won't be in that G3 Guide V14. Nope, that boat has been strictly
designated the floating raft that moves occasionally to a shady nook
or inlet to the lake while the babe and I relax on the water. And I
can relax more if I not rowing.

You have no wrong options here (nothing wrong with oars either). My 2 cents............. ;-)
Rick


Not true, there IS something wrong with oars. I have to use my
arms and hands to make them move! That's what this whole gig is
about. Hiowever, with all of the input I'm sorta leaning between the
Suzuki 2.5 HP 4-stroke, the Tohatsu 4 HP 4-stroke and the Tohatsu 3.5
HP 2-stroke. Check out this nice review on the Suzuki 2.5 hp which I
can have delivered to my front door for $721.00.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Suzuki's DF2.5 is the world's most fuel efficient tender outboard,
reports Andrew Norton

The DF2.5 is the smallest and lightest four-stroke outboard Suzuki
Marine has released. Weighing just 30 lbs., the DF2.5 has a 68cc
single-cylinder OHV powerhead with thermostatically-controlled
watercooling.

Developing 2.4hp at 5500 revs (based on 1hp equaling 746W) with a Wide
Open Throttle operating range of 5250 to 5750rpm, the DF2.5 has a
forward-neutral gearshift, 360-degree steering, twist-grip throttle
control, four easily-adjusted trim positions and an automatically-
engaging full tilt lock. Sensibly, Suzuki has incorporated a stopper
device that prevents the powerhead rotating more than a few degrees
when the outboard is fully tilted. Effective steering and throttle
friction adjusters are provided.

Unlike its Honda BF2D competition, the DF2.5 has a moulded carry
handle on the aft end of the lower cowl, ensuring the outboard will
always be carried the correct way to prevent sump oil from flooding
the cylinder. Alternatively, the outboard may be stored on its side on
the moulded lower cowl lugs provided.

Like the Honda, the DF2.5 has an easily-read oil level sight glass in
the lower cowl, with the sump accessed by unscrewing a plug to one
side of the sump, which holds 0.38lt of oil. But, unlike the Honda,
which relies on splash or 'mist' lubrication and can only use Honda
SAE 10W30 oil that's rated to a maximum ambient temperature of 32
degrees, the pressure-lubricated DF2.5 can use oils from 10W30 up to
20W40. However the Quicksilver four-cycle watercooled 10W30 oil used
by my local Suzuki dealer can be used in all ambient temperatures from
minus 20 degrees to over 40 degrees and provides rapid crankshaft,
piston ring and rocker gear lubrication on cold starting.

Servicing intervals for the DF2.5 are every 50 hours or six months
after the initial check-up at 20 hours. The waterpump impeller should
be checked and/or replaced every 100 hours or once a year. A nice
touch is the chrome rocker cover, which allows for valve clearance
adjustment by removing four bolts, whereas this adjustment in the
Honda necessitates removing the entire air cooling shroud, including
the overhead recoil starter.

The DF2.5's large-capacity zinc anode just above the anti-ventilation
plate should handle any leg electrolysis when the tender is rafted up
alongside a yacht or cruiser.

Compared to the BF2D, the DF2.5 swings a relatively coarse-pitch prop
for such a small outboard, even allowing for its 2.15:1 reduction
ratio. But whereas the Honda has a 2.42:1 gear reduction and a 4.5-
inch pitch prop compared to 5.4 inches for the Suzuki, the latter's
prop is weedless and able to 'slip' a lot more under load compared to
the Honda's 'high thrust' prop. The swept-back weedless blades also
catch less weed than the Honda's prop.

The DF2.5 normally starts first pull, hot or cold, and reaches normal
operating temperature in about two minutes from cold. The lack of
water spraying from the exhaust relief holes until the thermostat has
opened is a bit disconcerting and Suzuki should fit a separate pilot
water discharge similar to the DF4 to DF6 range of four strokes.

Because of its small displacement powerhead, the DF2.5 idles in
neutral at around 2000rpm and 1500 in gear, whereas with its
centrifugal clutch the Honda idles at about 1500 in neutral. But, when
trolling, the Suzuki would run for up to 10 hours on a litre of fuel
compared to eight for the Honda. And, despite its 19 per cent greater
piston displacement, the Suzuki has lower vibration levels and, being
watercooled, it is significantly quieter across the entire rev range.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

So Tohatsu 3.5 HP 2-stroke ($650), Suzuki 2.5 HP 4-stroke
($721), Tohatsu 3.5 HP 4-stroke ($835) or Tohatsu 4 HP 4-stroke)
$965? Decisions, decisions.....any preferences out there for one of
these if my 30 lb. Minn-Kota electric won't push it around with 500
lbs. on board?

-Jay


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Old April 16th 08, 05:55 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

On Apr 15, 6:01*pm, wrote:

Jay,

I drove myself about half nuts choosing a small outboard for my
inflatable. Decided firmly on the Suzuki DF2.5 four stroke. UPS just
delivered it a few minutes ago. It's a far cry from the old
Johnnyrudes, lemmetellya. Lovely piece of gear indeed. The $729 you
list is actually a pretty decent price, but, in the
interest of not starving, I'm pretty good at finding the rock bottom
lowest prices on stuff. Local dealers wanted almost a grand including
sales tax, so that wouldn't cut it. Found a real nice guy named Ray
Jr. at The Boat Place, Naples Florida, 239-200-9597. Who sold me one
new in factory box, shipped to godforsaken scumhole known as Dallas,
Texas, for over $100 less than your price. He shipped promptly, sent
tracking # immediately, and provided a pleasant buying experience.
Seemed like something you might want to know. And, as far as I know,
30 lb thrust is roughly one horsepower. Peace out...........


Sounds like a good match and price. Tohatsu/Nissan also had a 2HP
that they changed to a 2.5 HP in January by tweaking the carb a bit,
according to a tech I contacted at Tohatsu. Best price I've seen on
that is about $685 delivered. Odd though that the motor on the
Tohatsu 2.5 is 85.5cc while the one on the Suzuki 2.5 is 68cc. What's
the bottom line advantage, if any, to an outboard that has the same
horsepower rating as another yet has a greater cc displacement? BTW,
that Tohatsu 2.5 and the Tohatsu 3.5 4-strokers have the same 85.5cc
motor.

What I find so nice about this group are the technical and
informative responses one gets from the members. It also seems to be
much more active that rec.boats. As you can tell, I'm rather new to
the outboard scene. Been a rower of small boats for a long time but
getting too old to make a career out of it so now turning to more
alternate forms of energy than my arms and shoulders (does that make
me hip and "green" with the times? lol) Ooops, guess I'm going the
"wrong way" to achieve "alternate energy." I should be progressing
"away" from technology? OMG, I'm already "green!" LOL

But with all the help I've received and the options presented, I'm
about ready to make a move and once I do, there'll be a comprehensive
review on my choice, whether good or bad. -Jay
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Old April 16th 08, 11:34 AM posted to rec.boats.cruising
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Default Suzuki DF4 vs. DF6

On Apr 15, 6:01*pm, wrote:
Jay,

I drove myself about half nuts choosing a small outboard for my
inflatable. Decided firmly on the Suzuki DF2.5 four stroke. UPS just
delivered it a few minutes ago. It's a far cry from the old
Johnnyrudes, lemmetellya. Lovely piece of gear indeed.



Hurry and get that thing in the water. I want to know how quiet it
is, how easy to start, power, etc.
-Jay
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