Steve wrote in message
...

No, it's a bit like the equal disdain I have for the current
extortion applied to passing the UK driving test. Most
youngsters
[read: parents] these days are paying the best part of £1,000
which is *ridiculous* and yet *another* nu-labor (sic) method
of
collecting revenue / discouraging motorists while ignoring the
*real* issues behind our overcrowded roads.

/rant

Yes, that's a rant. You don't have to pay for a driving course to
take the test. But doing so considerably increases the
probability of passing the test. Same with power boat
certificates.

who's the best judge of where limits (speed -
or power in this case, it's surrogate) should be applied?
Visitors? who seek pleasure - or local residents? who suffer
the
consequences (of accidents).

A system which promotes driver responsibility rather than
drone-style rule compliance.. Since when could a bloody sheep
drive sensibly?

Now that's not a logical answer to the question, it's a bit like
another rant . . .

I've seen enough speed related water deaths in Nidri (Greece,
Levkas - 3 to 5 a year for each of ten years) to be convinced
that something needs to be done.
Do you know
how to treat a windsurfer who is overtaking your powerboat?

Nope, but at a guess I'd throttle off slightly, move away
slowly
where possible and make damn sure I did not take the wind from
his* sail as I imagine the latter would upset him* a tad..

No. Maintain course and speed so he can plan how best to avoid
you. As overtaking vessel the windsurfer has to keep clear of
you. Changes to your velocity could negate his plan, thus causing
a collision.

Do
you know enough to predict the reactions of a boat which
you're
approaching which is going to alter course to avoid a
potential
collision with a third party?

I have very good 'natural' spacial awareness and hand-to-eye
coordination, so I think I'd probably do ok. And I'd try to do
so
with full consideration for not putting others' more at risk.
First rule is "don't panic".

Not good enough. That approach didn't work in the past, so rules
were invented.
The paradox was that the majority of drivers thought they had
above average ability. The reality was that most were average -
by definition.

Make my question more simple. You're converging with a similar
power boat coming from your left.
a. How do you know whether (if nothing's done) you're on a
collision course?
b. If you're on a collision course, what would you do?

Answers in three seconds please . . .

JimB

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you?

"Seriously, could I have done any better while holding a
certificate?"

Seriously, you could have done a lot better if you'd known to get into
shelter earlier, which the course you so deride would probably have
taught you.

No-one would have "known to get into shelter earlier", there was
no warning, whatsoever.

Rubbish. A sea doesn't build from nothing to dangerous in no time. It
happens quickly, but not in no time. A lot of energy input is
required, and the sea surface is a relatively poor transducer of
energy. And you can see the weather coming in on the windward horizon,
especially with sudden squalls.

You either think I'm not being truthful about the circumstances
at the time, perhaps you didn't understand me or you think a
certificate [read: course] would endow me with psychic abilities.
Either way, you are not being reasonable about this.

I'm a reasonably skilled small boat user, and I've been knocking about
in waters a lot more dangerous than the eastern mediteranean for forty
years. I'm not a great believer in bits of paper, but I am a great
believer in knowing how to read the sea state, how to read the
weather, and how to plan a passage so that you know what you're going
to do in every eventuality of the weather. A good course will teach
you some of this, although experience will teach you more.

On the day in question a *lot* of people were caught out, the
forecast had suggested the opposite of what happened

That's normal.

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

Steve writes:

Simon Brooke , wrote:

Steve writes:

If you experience this sort of difficulties at your level of skill,
don't you think a course in boat handling would actually be useful to
you?

"Seriously, could I have done any better while holding a
certificate?"

Seriously, you could have done a lot better if you'd known to get into
shelter earlier, which the course you so deride would probably have
taught you.

No-one would have "known to get into shelter earlier", there was
no warning, whatsoever.

Rubbish. A sea doesn't build from nothing to dangerous in no time. It
happens quickly, but not in no time. A lot of energy input is
required, and the sea surface is a relatively poor transducer of
energy. And you can see the weather coming in on the windward horizon,
especially with sudden squalls.

You either think I'm not being truthful about the circumstances
at the time, perhaps you didn't understand me or you think a
certificate [read: course] would endow me with psychic abilities.
Either way, you are not being reasonable about this.

I'm a reasonably skilled small boat user, and I've been knocking about
in waters a lot more dangerous than the eastern mediteranean for forty
years. I'm not a great believer in bits of paper, but I am a great
believer in knowing how to read the sea state, how to read the
weather, and how to plan a passage so that you know what you're going
to do in every eventuality of the weather. A good course will teach
you some of this, although experience will teach you more.

On the day in question a *lot* of people were caught out, the
forecast had suggested the opposite of what happened

That's normal.

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be
dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

Me neither. Like most of us, I've sailed a little in Greece. Yes there
are freaky winds, there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the
Adriatic that I live by. However they do not appear without warning,
ever.

Then I can only propose you spend some time on the Croatian side of your bit
of water - I've been sailing my yacht there for over 20 years and the Bora
is a wind to respect. It *often* arrives without warning, although sometimes
there are maritime reports that conditions are such that one could be
expected; not always correct. It hits like a sledgehammer and in ten minutes
can be storm force. I've been at anchor and been suddenly well heeled over
from mast windage alone, until the boat settles downwind to the anchor. The
conditions that produce this NNE wind are probably associated with the steep
coastal mountains. For some details see:
http://www.cig.ensmp.fr/~iahs/sappor.../015776-1.html
An extract: ".. the bora speed maxima may surpass 60 m/s. Thus, bora is one
of the severest local winds in the world." And I repeat, contrary to your
claim, it often does "appear without warning," Last summer was so stable
that in three months of cruising I did not experience this formidable wind
at all, the first time for many years.

BrianH

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Simon Brooke wrote:

and the turn
in the weather and wind direction happened within a few minutes.

That's not uncommon, but when it happens you will see it coming if you
know what you're looking for. Large chunks of atmosphere moving around
fast have tremendous momentum - if they didn't they wouldn't be
dangerous -
and the effects of that are visible.

The boatyard owner was worried as he too had been caught out and
it was even discussed later that evening in the restaurant we
attended. No-one, I repeat *no-one* could have predicted what
happened more than a few minutes beforehand.

I don't believe you.

Me neither. Like most of us, I've sailed a little in Greece. Yes there
are freaky winds, there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the
Adriatic that I live by. However they do not appear without warning,
ever.

Then I can only propose you spend some time on the Croatian side of your bit
of water - I've been sailing my yacht there for over 20 years and the Bora
is a wind to respect. It *often* arrives without warning, although sometimes
there are maritime reports that conditions are such that one could be
expected; not always correct. It hits like a sledgehammer and in ten minutes
can be storm force. I've been at anchor and been suddenly well heeled over
from mast windage alone, until the boat settles downwind to the anchor. The
conditions that produce this NNE wind are probably associated with the steep
coastal mountains. For some details see:
http://www.cig.ensmp.fr/~iahs/sappor.../015776-1.html
An extract: ".. the bora speed maxima may surpass 60 m/s. Thus, bora is one
of the severest local winds in the world." And I repeat, contrary to your
claim, it often does "appear without warning," Last summer was so stable
that in three months of cruising I did not experience this formidable wind
at all, the first time for many years.

BrianH

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
BrianH wrote:

And I repeat, contrary to your claim, it often does "appear without
warning," Last summer was so stable that in three months of cruising I
did
not experience this formidable wind at all, the first time for many
years.

I've experienced the Bora in Ancona and around Giulianova. It doesn't
arive in Italy without warning. Whether it's sufficient warning to get
to a safe haven is another question.

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning. The bora originates in the eastern Adriatic hinterland and can
appear in the inshore eastern Adriatic "in hurricane force" without any
warning whatsoever, if they are of the locally generated sort, and the
summer ones usually are. They also are not extensive, so what you have
experienced in Italy are not typical of what are invoked off the Croatian
coast. What you are referring to as "bora" is almost certainly only a strong
NE wind and, being onshore across a sea, usually predictable.

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

BrianH.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
BrianH wrote:

And I repeat, contrary to your claim, it often does "appear without
warning," Last summer was so stable that in three months of cruising I
did
not experience this formidable wind at all, the first time for many
years.

I've experienced the Bora in Ancona and around Giulianova. It doesn't
arive in Italy without warning. Whether it's sufficient warning to get
to a safe haven is another question.

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning. The bora originates in the eastern Adriatic hinterland and can
appear in the inshore eastern Adriatic "in hurricane force" without any
warning whatsoever, if they are of the locally generated sort, and the
summer ones usually are. They also are not extensive, so what you have
experienced in Italy are not typical of what are invoked off the Croatian
coast. What you are referring to as "bora" is almost certainly only a strong
NE wind and, being onshore across a sea, usually predictable.

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

BrianH.

"Steve" wrote in message
...

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

But you quite obviously are! Don't forget, you started off this thread by
asking where you could get a forged ICC.

To your credit, you do seem to have learnt a bit of a lesson though, as you
are now at least trying to scrabble back onto the morale high-ground.

"Steve" wrote in message
...

So now you resort to calling me a lair.

But you quite obviously are! Don't forget, you started off this thread by
asking where you could get a forged ICC.

To your credit, you do seem to have learnt a bit of a lesson though, as you
are now at least trying to scrabble back onto the morale high-ground.

"BrianH" writes:

We are not discussing the bora in Italy; let me remind you of your words, "
there are even scary freaky winds in the parts of the Adriatic that I live
by. However they do not appear without warning, ever." So I'm pleased to see
you are admitting your error - that winds in some areas can appear without
warning.

He didn't admit that 'error', and neither do I. Yes, winds falling off
mountainsides can hit very hard very suddenly - I remember one
occasion sailing along gently on a very nice day with just the jib up
and suddenly being knocked down to mast horizontal by such a wind. I
was caught out on that occasion because I was not paying
attention. But it is literally impossible for such a wind to 'appear
without warning'. To get that sort of effect you need a very violent
movement of a very large amount (at least thousands of tons) of air,
and if you are paying attention you will see it coming. The new air
must be significantly different (usually much colder) than the air it
replaces, so will have different moisture and dust content and hence
different trnsparency, leading to different apparent sky colour and
different visibility, even if you do not see the different colour and
texture of the water surface as it approaches (which, if you are close
inshore, you may not).

Whilst the original poster made some silly comments, which, to his credit he
seems to be reconsidering, I see no need to call him a liar and use
inaccurate statements to justify it.

I don't think he's a liar. I think he's very inexperienced, and would
benefit either from going to sea regularly with someone more
experienced for some time, or, alternatively, stumping up his money
and taking a course.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Generally Not Used
;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists